Originally posted by Beniboybling
The 15 minute limit is fair when you consider that people could falsify their posts.
But someone could do that as they are making a post anyway. I mean I guess yeah, you could also do the same with grammar errors and adding information within the time limit sure.
But if you come across new information after the 15 minutes is up, you'd have to make a whole new post just to add the info to add to the previous post, which if there's multiple pages finding the new info would be rather time consuming and could get lost within the pages. You also wouldn't be able to correct errors if you didn't catch them the first time and just left your first post as is.
I get the limit if looking at it like that I suppose.
The inability to use the quote function is frustrating, but the incessant mockery here is a suitable drive for me to continue this debate, lol.
No, they really don't. I take Banite scaling with a grain of salt, as a lot of it doesn't match up with feats.
Reasonable (ie. repeatedly stated or well-supported) accolades take precedence over feats. Feats don't take precedence over accolades.
This is an interesting double standard though, since I recall you supporting the Revan >>> Nihilus quotes when Revan doesn't have any showings of a superior caliber. Secondly, Sidious' feats don't make his accolades of superiority over Plagueis unreasonable at all, especially since Sidious' upper limit isn't even established through showings.
Just as well, we don't know how much more powerful each subsequent Sith was from the one before. I mean, Bane has feats that can be easily compared to things that Sidious has done, so the gaps couldn't have been that huge.
You mean Bane has comparable feats when you cite Sidious' lower-end or more effortless showings that don't actually display the level of power he's supposed to have, and then compare to it Bane's?
Show me Bane blitzing three of the greatest swordsmen in Jedi history. Show me Bane bending lightsaber blades with Lightning. Show me Bane generating weather storms across the galaxy just by appearing as a hologram. Show me Bane being able to tear apart buildings. Show me Bane generating Wormholes that rip the fabric of time and space and can devastate the surfaces of worlds. Show me Bane generating Lightning Storms with enough precision to avoid specific individuals whilst striking others. Show me Bane blowing up enemy lightsabers with a gesture. Show me Bane hurting Vader-caliber Force users across the galaxy with telepathy. Show me Bane telepathically enslaving a twenty-billion populace and continuously leeching life from them.
So even IF TPM Sidious was superior to Plagueis immediately following Hego's death, the disparoty would likely have been minimal, and that's even if it's existent at all. But as far as accolades go, the RoT scaling quotes are blanket statements. Sidious never proved his superiority to Plagueis in any way, he has no feat pre- Clone Wars era that top anything Plagueis has done.
And yet Mandalorian Wars Revan doesn't have a single feat on Nihilus' level. Again, Sidious doesn't have an established upper limit at this point with respect to feats that would necessitate a "contradiction" to the accolades.
It's much more likely than Sidious killing Plagueis upon receiving the "skill and ability to do so" refers to Palpatine finally have the means to be able to do it, not necessarily being superior to him.
I know that, which is why I didn't bring it up. Stop repeating yourself.
And again, nothing suggests that the power increase Sheev received upon Hego's death really proves that the power boost moved him beyond Plagueis.
Well, the text itself implies as much, but it's from the perspective of Sidious, so I'm sure you'll consider it invalid on those grounds.
You mean "author quotes aren't to be considered when they punch a bigass hole in my argument" right?
No. I don't take author opinions on fights as gospel, ever. Even their clarifications of their own stories, which valued, aren't gospel. They can be worth something, but they're not law.
It's funny that you accuse me of double standards when not taking author quotes, even though I have a blanket policy on them, whereas you have completely subjective quotas for quotes that you accept and dismiss any that don't align with your argument.
It could mean through unorthodox methods, but it might not, or it could just be Luceno deciding to be vague as hell like so many of these authors do. There are many ways to look at what Luceno said, the most likely meaning is that Plagueis is > TPM Sheev.
lol So you can choose what the meaning of the quote is without having to discuss it with me, despite admitting that it's vague? Hilarious.
It's also hilarious that you're taking this quote despite this not exactly being proven with feats. Again, Sidious doesn't have an established upper limit as far as feats go.
Pretty sure I did, maybe not. Either way I think I might have in one of the above counters, but I'm too tired atm to give a rat's ass about this specific point, mostly because I don't wanna look through all my other posts on this thread right now.
So that's a concession.
Kreia, Nihilus' master, the one that trained him, a person who knows him first hand (heh heh) and has experienced Nihilus' power, motivations, etc with her mind and body, said Nihilus isn't Sith. And literally EVERYTHING about Nihilus, minus his moniker, says he isn't Sith.
Untrue. Kreia says he cares nothing for Sith teachings, but refers to him as a "Lord of the Sith". She never once says he isn't Sith.
Tarnis and Praven aren't within player knowledge? I seem to remember encountering them both during my Jedi Knight play through. Boom, player knowledge, the codex entry is a recap.
Sorry, but the player has no way of knowing Tarnis or Praven's backstory. They don't learn about the Padawan that Praven killed. The fact that they know the characters doesn't mean they know everything about those characters, which is what I said before. I really don't like having to repeat myself.
They suspected as much though.
Prove it.
Well I mean, Shaak-Ti created an LS nexus on Felucia did she not? If one Jedi can do that then why wouldn't a haven of Jedi being constantly in the same place for several thousand years do the same? Your point sounds stupid now that you look at it through the eyes of common sense doesn't it?
Not really, and it's more puzzling that no source ever establishes the existence of a light side nexus, not even for the Temple (Malgus/Anakin and other dark siders who march into the Temple never feel weakened or anything either). TFU is a pretty stupid source, but I'm willing to take evidence of a LS nexus there if you have such evidence.
The power of the Dark Side was hiding kid Sheev, it's not like he was doing it of his own accord. It was something he had no control over.
No, but it was a showing of his raw power.
Sorry, what mental war? I think I might have missed that.
I meant Palpatine and Plagueis imbalancing the Force.
He was still able to get up. Based on what you originally said, you implied he was unable to or would have been unable to do so. Which is, as we see in the novel, blatantly false.
He wouldn't, if not for external assistance, lol. That's like citing Obi-Wan and Anakin's ability to stand up again after Dooku wounded them in AotC, which we know they only did with external medical assistance and Yoda arriving in time to stop Dooku from doing anything else. Now, Revan did heal himself here, but the point was that the Tutaminis/Lightning contest left him unable to stand - he required an extensive period of time afterwards to heal himself to stand back up, which was only allowed by the interventions of T3 and Meetra. So what I said was correct.
If gameplay trailers are to be used, one of them shows Revan running at the strike team when they arrived. We know in the actual game though that Revan unleashed a Force Wave to send everybody flying across the Terrace. He, logically, would probably have done something similar in the Temple of Sacrifice.
Right, so that's not how Sidious approached them. He didn't start with a Wave.
We have Marr and Shan, who compare well with any of the other Force Users in the fights, we have the HoT in both fights, we also have Lana Beniko. Lana, while not necessarily very comparable to the others, proved to be very strong in her own right, so there's that. Then we have Shae Viszla and Theron Shan, both of which who have killed Jedi and Sith Lords respectively, so we have 4 powerful Force users, 2 Jedi killer non-Force Users, and Jakarro, a hulking brute of Wookie that would be a threat to just anybody barring maybe Jedi Masters and Sith Lords. So yeah, the second strike team is pretty much on par with the first team, but they are inferior overall. Also keep in mind that Revan losing the first fight likely made him weaker, which is why the second team was able to defeat him. Full strength Revan (as he was when he fought in the Temple) vs the Strike team on the Terrace, probably would have ended differently.
EDIT: I'll respond to this later. Don't have the time for an extended response right now.
Satele saying that the HoT was the best of the Jedi at the time is fallacious honestly. He has no feats to suggest it was true. A comparison can be made to the quotes stating Anakin Skywalker as the most powerful Jedi of his era, something that's contradicted by Yoda's accolades, and more importantly, feats. It's the same exact thing, it's to bring emphasis to the fact that the HoT/Anakin are the main charcaters of their respective time periods, nothing more.
I did debate this point before, but you don't think Satele would suggest that HoT was stronger than her unless she actually believed it? lol
Considering the disturbance Revan caused was stated to be all of the below, I'd say the effect Revan had on the Force was much more significant than the Jedi briefly sensing a disturbance upon Maul's return to life.
Those are literally just fancy ways of saying "it's a disturbance in the Force". And we know that Revan's one grew gradually.
Fodder compared to a Dooku/Windu+ combatant isn't exactly a bad thing considering how damn strong that actually is, lol.
You can't use circular logic. Revan's good because those SF Sith were fodder to him, and those SF Sith were obviously strong because they were fodder to Revan. lol
Yes, it's a good feat, but not that overwhelming. As I said, it's mostly a stamina feat.
We have Marr and Shan, who compare well with any of the other Force Users in the fights
Well, but still below them.
we also have Lana Beniko. Lana, while not necessarily very comparable to the others, proved to be very strong in her own right, so there's that.
She's not comparable to any of the Force using protags.
Then we have Shae Viszla and Theron Shan, both of which who have killed Jedi and Sith Lords respectively, so we have 4 powerful Force users, 2 Jedi killer non-Force Users, and Jakarro, a hulking brute of Wookie that would be a threat to just anybody barring maybe Jedi Masters and Sith Lords. So yeah, the second strike team is pretty much on par with the first team, but they are inferior overall.
There's still another four protags, who shit on these characters.
Also keep in mind that Revan losing the first fight likely made him weaker, which is why the second team was able to defeat him. Full strength Revan (as he was when he fought in the Temple) vs the Strike team on the Terrace, probably would have ended differently.
I don't believe it. A hindered novel Revan was able to heal himself from much worse. I don't see why an amped SoR Revan couldn't heal himself from this.
Originally posted by SunRazerWas I mocking you? If it seemed like that then I apologize, I don't mock people that I hold with high respect. I was just busting your balls.
The inability to use the quote function is frustrating, but the incessant mockery here is a suitable drive for me to continue this debate, lol.Reasonable (ie. repeatedly stated or well-supported) accolades take precedence over feats. Feats don't take precedence over accolades.
This is an interesting double standard though, since I recall you supporting the Revan >>> Nihilus quotes when Revan doesn't have any showings of a superior caliber. Secondly, Sidious' feats don't make his accolades of superiority over Plagueis unreasonable at all, especially since Sidious' upper limit isn't even established through showings.
You mean Bane has comparable feats when you cite Sidious' lower-end or more effortless showings that don't actually display the level of power he's supposed to have, and then compare to it Bane's?
Show me Bane blitzing three of the greatest swordsmen in Jedi history. Show me Bane bending lightsaber blades with Lightning. Show me Bane generating weather storms across the galaxy just by appearing as a hologram. Show me Bane being able to tear apart buildings. Show me Bane generating Wormholes that rip the fabric of time and space and can devastate the surfaces of worlds. Show me Bane generating Lightning Storms with enough precision to avoid specific individuals whilst striking others. Show me Bane blowing up enemy lightsabers with a gesture. Show me Bane hurting Vader-caliber Force users across the galaxy with telepathy. Show me Bane telepathically enslaving a twenty-billion populace and continuously leeching life from them.
And yet Mandalorian Wars Revan doesn't have a single feat on Nihilus' level. Again, Sidious doesn't have an established upper limit at this point with respect to feats that would necessitate a "contradiction" to the accolades.
I know that, which is why I didn't bring it up. Stop repeating yourself.
Well, the text itself implies as much, but it's from the perspective of Sidious, so I'm sure you'll consider it invalid on those grounds.
No. I don't take author opinions on fights as gospel, ever. Even their clarifications of their own stories, which valued, aren't gospel. They can be worth something, but they're not law.
It's funny that you accuse me of double standards when not taking author quotes, even though I have a blanket policy on them, whereas you have completely subjective quotas for quotes that you accept and dismiss any that don't align with your argument.
lol So you can choose what the meaning of the quote is without having to discuss it with me, despite admitting that it's vague? Hilarious.
It's also hilarious that you're taking this quote despite this not exactly being proven with feats. Again, Sidious doesn't have an established upper limit as far as feats go.
So that's a concession.
Untrue. Kreia says he cares nothing for Sith teachings, but refers to him as a "Lord of the Sith". She never once says he isn't Sith.
Sorry, but the player has no way of knowing Tarnis or Praven's backstory. They don't learn about the Padawan that Praven killed. The fact that they know the characters doesn't mean they know everything about those characters, which is what I said before. I really don't like having to repeat myself.
Prove it.
Not really, and it's more puzzling that no source ever establishes the existence of a light side nexus, not even for the Temple (Malgus/Anakin and other dark siders who march into the Temple never feel weakened or anything either). TFU is a pretty stupid source, but I'm willing to take evidence of a LS nexus there if you have such evidence.
No, but it was a showing of his raw power.
I meant Palpatine and Plagueis imbalancing the Force.
He wouldn't, if not for external assistance, lol. That's like citing Obi-Wan and Anakin's ability to stand up again after Dooku wounded them in AotC, which we know they only did with external medical assistance and Yoda arriving in time to stop Dooku from doing anything else. Now, Revan did heal himself here, but the point was that the Tutaminis/Lightning contest left him unable to stand - he required an extensive period of time afterwards to heal himself to stand back up, which was only allowed by the interventions of T3 and Meetra. So what I said was correct.
Right, so that's not how Sidious approached them. He didn't start with a Wave.
EDIT: I'll respond to this later. Don't have the time for an extended response right now.
I did debate this point before, but you don't think Satele would suggest that HoT was stronger than her unless she actually believed it? lol
I hold feats above accolades, as accolades can be fallacious; feats cannot.
I jump around a lot concerning the Revan>Nihilus quote honestly, at one point I'll have more stock in it than at another given time and vice verse. Revan's feats are comparable at least though, and I think powerscaling supports the possibility of Revan's superiority. Though I'll admit that Nihilus likely isn't very far behind Revan, they're likely pretty close to each other. Nihilus is one of the characters I currently hold in the same league as Caedus and Sidious, alongside Revan.
I have examples to counter two of those arguments. Bane collapsing the Rakatan Temple, and using a Force storm (the lightning variant, not the wormholes, obviously) as just an apprentice; when it's stated to take Sith Masters years to be able to use it as well as Bane used at that moment.
I agree that Mando Wars Revan isn't on par with Nihilus, his later incarnations (Reborn and Resurrected) however, are entirely different matters. As they have feats and powerscaling that it at least comparable.
Likely the most labor intensive thing Sidious did up to this point was his ritual with Plagueis, and it's reasonable to assume Sidious likely contributed, let's say half (or less since Plagueis was unquestionably the more powerful one at the time), of the energy required to perform it. It can be assumed Sidious wouldn't be able to do it on his own, hence why Plagueis had to help. We can use that as a waypoint for Sidious' upper limit. So his upper limit would be below what Plagueis was capable of, making Plagueis still the superior of the two based on his feats and inferences that can be made through the performance of the ritual.
Fair enough, I'll try not to bring that up again.
And you'd be right. Sith are inherently self absorbed, any statement that any Sith says about themselves is to be taken with a grain of salt.
I suppose that's fair. I don't dismiss and accept whatever suits me, I look at the quotes and see if they're supported by other sources, feats and accolades. If they are supported I accept them, if they aren't, I don't.
I covered the upper limit argument above here somewhere in this comment. Yes the quote is somewhat vague, I'm simply stating what I think the most likely meaning is based on the impression I got when I first read it.
To that point maybe (which I don't think I remember what it was) but if that was my response it was likely an unimportant point, one I didn't feel was worth arguing. So sure, take a free point.
She says he cares nothing for Sith teachings, she says he no longer sees the galaxy as normal Force users do. She implies pretty well that he's not Sith, the title of Sith Lord for Nihilus is really just because no better term exists.
Those are minor details, the basic purpose of the entry is a recap. It provides little to no new information at all.
"He said there was a war coming. That it was waiting out in the unknown regions, in the dark, waiting for us to destroy each other." Said, I think, by Carth in KOTOR II. If a mere soldier like Carth knows vaguely about the Sith Empire in hiding, would you think the Jedi Council had AT LEAST an idea that SOMEATHING was out there, they said once that they felt something was behind the Mandalorian's aggression, so they obviously suspected something.
"I,too, lost a padawan on Malachor. Not to the battle, but to the alternative-to the teachings that Revan brought from the unknown regions."- said by Zez Kai Ell. And there it is, they knew of the teachings Revan brought from the Unknown Regions, the knew he found something out there that turned him to the Dark Side.
Galen Marek states that Felucia is strong in the Force and Juno states that the Felucians are more organized and powerful than record indicated. Galen states he suspects the hand of a Jedi behind it all. Now, I will say this source is pretty debatable. But everything Galen encountered on his way to Shaak-Ti was allied with the Jedi Master and arrayed against Galen. Suggesting they had a strong connection to the light side, which could imply that , at least a small area, of Felucia was a Nexus thanks to Shaak-Ti. And if that's the case then the mere presence of somebody like Yoda in the Jedi temple for over 800 years should have reasonably effected the alignment of that already potent nexus in a similar way.
Yes, raw power, which is the same as potential. So unless the argument is that Sidious was as powerful at a younger age as he was as his full potential self (DE) there's really no point worth being made here.
Ah. While definitely an excellent feat, I won't argue that it's one of their collective best, at least for the time, the feat isn't unprecedented.
What you said was correct to an extent. You originally implied that Revan would have been entirely incapable of getting back up, which is entirely false as per what happens in the novel itself. Outside circumstances aside, Revan was able to get back up. That's the point I'm trying to make here.
The circumstances didn't call for Sidious needing to unleash a wave, he has fewer targets to focus on, all in a tight space where he could easily maneuver around them and kill them with ease. Windu was the only one he even considered a threat, which shows how powerful the rest of the B-team is in comparison to anybody of Windu's caliber or above. The circumstances for Revan were somewhat different. A Force Wave was the best option for him due to the area being a wide open space with 7 or 8 opponents all standing spaced apart. Bum-rushing either strike team would have been foolish.
Fair enough.
I think she was selling herself short and outlining that the HoT was the future of the Jedi Order. Like my comparison to Anakin's accolades suggests.
Originally posted by SunRazerThat's hardcore underrating right there. The quotes are pretty clear that the disturbance Revan caused was more than something minor like you're making it out to be. It was considered, even by the Sith, to be something potentially very dangerous.
Those are literally just fancy ways of saying "it's a disturbance in the Force". And we know that Revan's one grew gradually.You can't use circular logic. Revan's good because those SF Sith were fodder to him, and those SF Sith were obviously strong because they were fodder to Revan. lol
Yes, it's a good feat, but not that overwhelming. As I said, it's mostly a stamina feat.
I worded my last point concerning this somewhat poorly. The Sith on the SF are stated as master duelists, which is what potentially makes them deadly. The fact that they were stationed on the SF with Malak himself gives this quote a little weight. What makes the feat good for Revan is that they were as skilled as they were, and that they attacked in numbers while Revan was weakened by the SF and they were amped. It is a great stamina feat, but it's also an impressive combat feat as well. One that very few in the grand arc of Star Wars could replicate.
Also, ignore the pic I posted in the above response. It's a quote I already used in the same response farther up, not sure why I posted it as a pic as well.