TBH we probably will have to wait to see how these magic users do against conventional characters before we have any kind of definitive answer. As of now, I just assume they're normal humans, with normal human reflexes that wouldn't have a prayer of being able to react to something as basic as a gun shot, never mind having any kind of chance against big guns, like Thor and Vision.
Originally posted by HellRider
I can see why you'd pull out the "no limits fallacy" but is it? Doctor Strange says to her "this doesn't make any sense" and she replies "not everything has to." I'm not saying this proves that she can manipulate their armor but I don't see why she couldn't. They are merely mechanical vehicles. They are inanimate objects in space. In the first fight scene she folds buildings onto zealots to crush them. I'm only saying I think there is definitely a possibility she could perform that same act on Stark's armor.Why isn't what Wanda does considered spells? She's using power that was given to her from an Infinity Stone to alter nature. When Doctor Strange used the Time Stone they stated he was casting spells with it. Same goes for when Malekith used the Reality Stone to change the cosmos, Loki's Mind Tap with the scepter or when Ronan zapped the Nova Corp w/ the power stone. If what TAO does is spell casting but what Wanda does isn't, I'm asking, what's the difference? But like I said, I can see how someone could refute my stance.
Oh she is definitely a glass cannon but she is a very tricky and powerful glass cannon. I do agree BFR is her best advantage against most of the Avengers, if not all.
and wanda's powers might be magical by nature but its pretty clear they're not spells the same way the ancient one uses hers. she probably wouldn't have some counter curse for it.
The difference is they were fellow sorcerers, with magical powers. So, an argument can be made that they could counter direct attempts, especially considering the crew in question was mucking about with the Dark Dimension themselves (the whole reason the Ancient One confronted them). We even see Kaecilius and crew manage to break out of Strange's time reversal, later in the film. Iron Man's suits have nothing magical about them.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
The difference is they were fellow sorcerers, with magical powers. So, an argument can be made that they could counter direct attempts, especially considering the crew in question was mucking about with the Dark Dimension themselves (the whole reason the Ancient One confronted them). We even see Kaecilius and crew manage to break out of Strange's time reversal, later in the film. Iron Man's suits have nothing magical about them.
The zealots didn't have reality bending powers when she first fought them, yet she never manipulated their clothing. So we can't attribute powers to her she doesn't have feats for.
Well, I said win via any means necessary, including flipping things into the mirror dimension.
Anyway, I personally think she likely stops at Wanda. I think that she could potentially take IM or WM (I could see her tricking them into the Mirror Dimension), but I think that, unless Wanda jobs, her shields + offensive capabilities would net her a win here. Even though the Ancient One displayed enhanced durability (getting stabbed through the chest and falling like 10 stories would have instantly killed a regular human), she won't survive Wanda going all out. SW stopped a speeding train, and caught a falling airport control tower. That indicates that her TK is likely in the hundreds of tons range if she really pushes herself.
Originally posted by FrothByte
The zealots didn't have reality bending powers when she first fought them, yet she never manipulated their clothing. So we can't attribute powers to her she doesn't have feats for.
Eh, fair enough. But it doesn't negate it completely. She could still just move things to the Mirror Dimension and potentially twist/bend buildings/roads etc. around to create obstacles, or to crush opponents, as she did against the zealots. She essentially has total control over the terrain, if she chooses. That is hardly an advantage that should be overlooked.
Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
and wanda's powers might be magical by nature but its pretty clear they're not spells the same way the ancient one uses hers. she probably wouldn't have some counter curse for it.
This is a difficult one to address. The Eye is an Infinity Stone, and sorcerers can manipulate it. SW got her powers from another Infinity Stone. It all seems to come down to manipulation of dimensional energies. Remember, the Ancient One mentioned that "spells" is just a word the ancient sorcerers used for it, but that it can be referred to differently as well. But it's impossible to say for sure, at this point. I wouldn't make an argument based on producing "counter-magic" against SW. At least not at this point in time.
Which makes me wonder, on a somewhat unrelated (yet kind of related) note. AIDA, from Agents of Shield. In the last episode,
Spoiler:
after scanning that mystical tomb (the Darkhold, or whatever it was called), seemed capable of manipulating strands of energy that look very similar to the energy Earth-based sorcerers use. In fact, based on how it was portrayed, and other things I read, Coulson & Fitz were stuck in the Mirror Dimension. I also thought it was pretty interesting how they blended mystical elements with tech. Though it's kind of weird that a robot can do magic.Been reading rumors that she might become kind of an Ultron 2.0 though.
Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
which is why I think war machine stands a way better shot than cap or hawkeye. His flight should allow him to dodge buildings crushing him and he doesn't have to get close. He would probably stand a better chance than hulk or thor who have to get all up in her business to hurt her.
Thor is the last person that needs to get close to hurt her. She has no defense against a summoned tornado. A charged hammer strike to the floor or a flat out lightning bolt are also possible ways to overwhelm her. From a distance anyway.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
This is a difficult one to address. The Eye is an Infinity Stone, and sorcerers can manipulate it. SW got her powers from another Infinity Stone. It all seems to come down to manipulation of dimensional energies. Remember, the Ancient One mentioned that "spells" is just a word the ancient sorcerers used for it, but that it can be referred to differently as well. But it's impossible to say for sure, at this point. I wouldn't make an argument based on producing "counter-magic" against SW. At least not at this point in time.Which makes me wonder, on a somewhat unrelated (yet kind of related) note. AIDA, from Agents of Shield. In the last episode,
Spoiler:
after scanning that mystical tomb (the Darkhold, or whatever it was called), seemed capable of manipulating strands of energy that look very similar to the energy Earth-based sorcerers use. In fact, based on how it was portrayed, and other things I read, Coulson & Fitz were stuck in the Mirror Dimension. I also thought it was pretty interesting how they blended mystical elements with tech. Though it's kind of weird that a robot can do magic.Been reading rumors that she might become kind of an Ultron 2.0 though.
Not all sorcerers can manipulate the time stone. Strange was able to manipulate the time stone after much study, and even Mordo was surprised at this since I assume he couldn't do it as well.
We can assume that the Sorcerer Supreme can control the time gem but we can't assume she can control the other infinity stones especially if she didn't have time to study them.
Didn't Vault already respond to that? It wouldn't have made any sense as they were also sorcerers and could probably negate it, or at least put up enough of a fight that it wasn't worth the hassle. It's like Cyclops and Havok blasting each other when they're immune to the others power. Waste of time.
Also she clearly didn't need to. But seriously, she and Kacelius were casually warping buildings and entire locations. You think she can't change clothes/armor?
Originally posted by KingD19
Didn't Vault already respond to that? It wouldn't have made any sense as they were also sorcerers and could probably negate it, or at least put up enough of a fight that it wasn't worth the hassle. It's like Cyclops and Havok blasting each other when they're immune to the others power. Waste of time.Also she clearly didn't need to. But seriously, she and Kacelius were casually warping buildings and entire locations. You think she can't change clothes/armor?
And we already addressed this. None of the zealots had reality bedning powers when the Ancient one first fought them. Which means they had no defense against their clothes being turned against them... if the Ancient One could do it.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Not all sorcerers can manipulate the time stone. Strange was able to manipulate the time stone after much study, and even Mordo was surprised at this since I assume he couldn't do it as well.
Much study? He dicked around with that book for like 10 minutes before doing the apple thing. Mordo was surprised, because Strange was still a relative noob. Just like Wong thought that he wasn't ready for Astral Projection, until Strange proved him wrong. I was talking about properly trained and experienced sorcerers. And it was never once stated Mordo couldn't manipulate it. That is purely an assumption on your part. Mordo's reluctance to use it would be more related to his character at the time, as he was completely against mucking with the natural order of things.
Originally posted by FrothByte
We can assume that the Sorcerer Supreme can control the time gem but we can't assume she can control the other infinity stones especially if she didn't have time to study them.
You seem to have missed the point of my post then. I said it comes down to the manipulation of dimensional energy, so there was a potential link, and a potential that it could be manipulated similarly. I never stated as fact that she could definitely do it. I specifically said that I wouldn't make an argument on her countering SW's abilities, at least not until we have seen more. Which is also why I said I think she stops there.