The Ancient One runs an Avengers Gauntlet

Originally posted by KingD19
Didn't Vault already respond to that? It wouldn't have made any sense as they were also sorcerers and could probably negate it, or at least put up enough of a fight that it wasn't worth the hassle. It's like Cyclops and Havok blasting each other when they're immune to the others power. Waste of time.

Also she clearly didn't need to. But seriously, she and Kacelius were casually warping buildings and entire locations. You think she can't change clothes/armor?

Not if it's from the real world no I don't think she can. Onlying Kace impacted the real world. He isn't in this fight. The AO doesn't have that ability. The mirror realme sure, but it is pure baseless speculation to assume she could **** with the material from the real world..even in the mirror dimension. So again..the armors are from the real plane of existence. You have no proof she can mess with it.

Originally posted by wallman77
Not if it's from the real world no I don't think she can. Onlying Kace impacted the real world. He isn't in this fight. The AO doesn't have that ability. The mirror realme sure, but it is pure baseless speculation to assume she could **** with the material from the real world..even in the mirror dimension. So again..the armors are from the real plane of existence. You have no proof she can mess with it.

Considering Dr Strange turned a tea cup into a mug of beer, and then refilled it, in the real world, it is most likely the case that she could also transmute matter. While it's not usable in this specific thread, it's certainly not a case of there being "no proof", and it's definitely not "baseless" either.

In any case, let's just drop the whole messing with armor/clothing idea since that's a dead end. The AO simply doesn't have the feats for it.

Originally posted by FrothByte
She did all those when she wasn't in danger of getting hurt herself. Strange wasn't really attacking her, didn't even know what to expect, so the circumstances of her doing so are vastly different than when in a fight.

It's like how martial art masters can break multiple layers of brick with a single punch and yet can't easily break their opponent's bones in a proper fight.

But we'd need an actual reason why she couldn't do it in combat. This isn't really enough of a reason. It didn't seem to take much concentration or effort.

Originally posted by Surtur
But we'd need an actual reason why she couldn't do it in combat. This isn't really enough of a reason. It didn't seem to take much concentration or effort.

Err no, you actually need feats of her doing so in combat, because otherwise it would beg the question as to why she never used it in combat if it was so effective. It's the same reason why Ozy catching a bullet does not translate to bullet-time speed while in combat.

I'd argue that the situation with Ozy and the Ancient One is different. Ozy has other combat showings that aren't happening at bullet time speed. That shot was also telegraphed as f***. We also know that things like an astral form punch is next to useless against trained sorcerers, as they have control over their astral form, so there is a valid reason for not using it in combat in the film. And Strange did lunge at her (unlike a completely stationary pile of bricks). Whether his attempt was to harm or not, she responded to a quick action, and countered. So, why exactly is it such a stretch to assume she could do so with a clean strike, in combat? We see that she is hardly some noob when it comes to fighting, and that she was able to do those things to Strange without any effort.

Let me ask you this. Do you think Captain America can decapitate a regular human with his shield (single, clean strike/throw)? Available strength feats suggest he could, but he has never visibly done so in combat.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I'd argue that the situation with Ozy and the Ancient One is different. Ozy has other combat showings that aren't happening at bullet time speed. That shot was also telegraphed as f***. We also know that things like an astral form punch is next to useless against trained sorcerers, as they have control over their astral form, so there is a valid reason for not using it in combat in the film. And Strange did lunge at her (unlike a completely stationary pile of bricks). Whether his attempt was to harm or not, she responded to a quick action, and countered. So, why exactly is it such a stretch to assume she could do so with a clean strike, in combat? We see that she is hardly some noob when it comes to fighting, and that she was able to do those things to Strange without any effort.

Let me ask you this. Do you think Captain America can decapitate a regular human with his shield (single, clean strike/throw)? Available strength feats suggest he could, but he has never visibly done so in combat.

The Captain America comparison is a bad one since he actually has feats of cutting ultronbots and chitauri in half with his shield while in combat. Both of which appear tougher than regular humans.

Astral punching another sorcerer would have left them disoriented for a second or two which would have given the AO an advantage over their physical form, yet she never did so. Think of it this way: majority of decently trained martial artists can perform a spinning heel kick. Yet only a very select few will try to use it in actual combat. Why? Because it's a ridiculously hard thing to do against a fighting opponent. Some moves are just hard to do while in combat even if they seem effortless during practice. Do you deny this is so?

Originally posted by FrothByte
The Captain America comparison is a bad one since he actually has feats of cutting ultronbots and chitauri in half with his shield while in combat. Both of which appear tougher than regular humans.

I said decapitate with single, clean strike. I never said simply cutting. The one time I recall him actually splitting an Ultron bot in half, he first shield tossed it, and then kicked the shield through the bot, after it had lodged in.

Originally posted by FrothByte

Astral punching another sorcerer would have left them disoriented for a second or two which would have given the AO an advantage over their physical form, yet she never did so. Think of it this way: majority of decently trained martial artists can perform a spinning heel kick. Yet only a very select few will try to use it in actual combat. Why? Because it's a ridiculously hard thing to do against a fighting opponent. Some moves are just hard to do while in combat even if they seem effortless during practice. Do you deny this is so?

How do you know it would have left them disorientated? How do you know it even works against someone who has conscious control of their astral form? That's pure speculation on your part. You are telling me I can't use a showing because it didn't happen in a specific way, but you are making assumptions about the effect it would have had if she did.

And you are comparing something she did with casual ease against a conscious, sentient, moving, agitated human, with something RL martial artists do against stationary, non-sentient objects. How exactly is that a fair comparison?

By that logic, things like Thor's Sokovia strike is also no longer usable in Versus threads, because he performed it against a vibranium core, after an uninterrupted moment to prep himself when Tony told him to get ready. Or claiming that the SHIELD guys he fought while depowered were uber skilled, just because Coulson described them as "some of the most highly trained professionals in the world", seeing as they have no actual screen feats to support that notion.

I rechecked the relevant fights. The only instance in any of those fights where Cap has moments of "cutting" enemies "in half" is the instance I mentioned in Age of Ultron, and it took multiple hits. Closest he came to cutting a Chitauri in half was when he severed the forearm of one, by pulling it straight and cutting down with his shield, something that would be harder to execute on a head/neck, in the same manner.

Yet, I would still say that, based on overall feats, he could decap a regular human with a single, clean strike.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I rechecked the relevant fights. The only instance in any of those fights where Cap has moments of "cutting" enemies "in half" is the instance I mentioned in Age of Ultron, and it took multiple hits. Closest he came to cutting a Chitauri in half was when he severed the forearm of one, by pulling it straight and cutting down with his shield, something that would be harder to execute on a head/neck, in the same manner.

Yet, I would still say that, based on overall feats, he could decap a regular human with a single, clean strike.

Cap cut an ultronbot in half in their first fight in Stark tower by throwing his shield at it. Cut its torso in half with a clean hit. So he does have feats for it while in combat. Like I said, not a good example to use Cap.

Those were hacked Iron Legion. Not proper Ultron Bots. A civilian damaged one by throwing a bottle at its head, in the beginning of the film.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller

How do you know it would have left them disorientated? How do you know it even works against someone who has conscious control of their astral form? That's pure speculation on your part. You are telling me I can't use a showing because it didn't happen in a specific way, but you are making assumptions about the effect it would have had if she did.

And you are comparing something she did with casual ease against a conscious, sentient, moving, agitated human, with something RL martial artists do against stationary, non-sentient objects. How exactly is that a fair comparison?

By that logic, things like Thor's Sokovia strike is also no longer usable in Versus threads, because he performed it against a vibranium core, after an uninterrupted moment to prep himself when Tony told him to get ready. Or claiming that the SHIELD guys he fought while depowered were uber skilled, just because Coulson described them as "some of the most highly trained professionals in the world", seeing as they have no actual screen feats to support that notion.

To be fair, you're also making assumptions that the astral punch will be useless against other sorcerers. Why? Do punches not work against boxers just because they can do it to? You're also making the assumption that AO can do it againat a properly fighting individual and not simply against an agitated but completely clueless and injured person.

Your example of Thor fails because he has the Jotunheim strike which is comparable to the Sokovia strike which he did in the middle of a fight. Your example of SHIELD agents being not uber skilled fails because every single SHIELD field agent we've seen are skilled, even a fresh recruit like Daisy, and we know that when Coulson says these were some of his best he isn't known to make stuff like that up. The difference is we have basis for these.

You're assuming that the AO can replicate a feat she did against a clueless, injured man who wasn't intent on fighting... duplicate that feat against a fully fighting individual with skills far greater than Strange at the time it happened to him.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Those were hacked Iron Legion. Not proper Ultron Bots. A civilian damaged one by throwing a bottle at its head, in the beginning of the film.

Throwing a bottle of acid. Not just A bottle. Are you telling me the neck of a person is tougher than the torso of those legions? That flesh blood and bone are tougher than steel or even iron?

Originally posted by FrothByte
To be fair, you're also making assumptions that the astral punch will be useless against other sorcerers. Why? Do punches not work against boxers just because they can do it to? You're also making the assumption that AO can do it againat a properly fighting individual and not simply against an agitated but completely clueless and injured person.

Except my assumption has more evidence to support it. We know trained sorcerers have control over their astral forms, and can even gain enough control to fight each other in astral. You are throwing out statements about how it will affect them for multiple seconds, based on what?

So wait, you are saying that her ability to use it is dependent on the intention of her opponent? Okay then.

Originally posted by FrothByte

Your example of Thor fails because he has the Jotunheim strike which is comparable to the Sokovia strike which he did in the middle of a fight. Your example of SHIELD agents being not uber skilled fails because every single SHIELD field agent we've seen are skilled, even a fresh recruit like Daisy, and we know that when Coulson says these were some of his best he isn't known to make stuff like that up. The difference is we have basis for these.

Where did I mention Jotunheim? But hey, let's get into that. He did it while a bunch of Frost Giants were running at him, to get to melee. So, by your own standards, it is only partially usable. What evidence is there that it would have the same effect if someone like Vision flew right at him? What evidence is there to suggest he could execute the attack with the same level of efficiency if someone like Loki or IM was taking potshots at him with repulsors or staff?

And no, Coulson never once said they were his best. I can post the clip if you want. He says the following: "My men, some of the most highly trained professionals in the world, and you made them look like minimum wage mall cops. That's hurtful." He never specified they were his best fighters, or his best anything. And the term "highly trained professional" can apply to any elite special force agency. That doesn't guarantee all of them are masterful H2H fighter (we can assume they have a degree of skill, but not that they are on par with the very elite we have seen, like May). So, how can you assign these guys skill level equal to other characters, when they have no feats, but dismiss the notion that the Ancient One could do something we know she can, simply because it wasn't against a hostile opponent?

Originally posted by FrothByte

You're assuming that the AO can replicate a feat she did against a clueless, injured man who wasn't intent on fighting... duplicate that feat against a fully fighting individual with skills far greater than Strange at the time it happened to him.

I said, IF she can land a clean strike, I don't see any reason why she couldn't.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Throwing a bottle of acid. Not just A bottle. Are you telling me the neck of a person is tougher than the torso of those legions? That flesh blood and bone are tougher than steel or even iron?

Well, according to your own statements, we can't assume anything without seeing it onscreen.

Edit: Plus, we see Tony's repulsors blast them apart, but they don't splatter people, even in instances where he is out to kill.

You can't have it both ways. Either we allow some degree of leeway for speculation, or things like the Jotunheim buster is only usable in threads where he is facing melee opponents, and the Sokovia strike isn't usable at all. And he executed them in different manners, so even saying he can do one doesn't mean he could do the other one in the same scenario.

@ Froth

Reading through everything, I think you misunderstood my initial meaning. I don't mean an astral form punch is a guaranteed instawin (or that other weird mind thing she did). Nor that it would even be an easy thing to achieve. Obviously, hitting anyone is not only dependent on your own skill level, but on theirs as well. So, it goes without saying that landing that kind of hit against Captain America would be harder than doing it against an untrained Dr Strange. But the fact that we have seen her knock a person's astral form out of their body with a strike, means it is a potential tactic in a fight, assuming she can land a proper, clean hit. Take your own example of the kick. It is not easy, and it might not connect. But that doesn't mean it is impossible for it to connect either, and could be worth attempting, especially against characters like Hulk or Thor, who are extremely resistant to conventional attacks. Even if the astral punches did work on other sorcerers, they still had relatively human durability, and she was kicking their a**** without having to resort to those tactics, whereas I don't see her normal magic weapons having much affect against those two.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, according to your own statements, we can't assume anything without seeing it onscreen.

Edit: Plus, we see Tony's repulsors blast them apart, but they don't splatter people, even in instances where he is out to kill.

Vault, if you gave me a decent argument then I will acknowledge and respect it. I'd appreciate if you did the same for me. Right now, you are strawmanning the hell out of my arguments... this is not like you.

Cap cut that robot in half with one clean hit. He did so while in combat. Considering that the robot is tougher than humans (able to withstand multiple gunshots) that should be more than enough proof that Cap has the ability to cut someone's head off in the middle of a fight... provided he can land the hit. This is a solid argument. Don't know why you keep contesting this.

Thor has used massive AOE strikes in the middle of a fight. SHIELD agents have all proven combat efficient in the middle of fights. Don't make this any more complicated than it is.

AO has not used that astral punch in the middle of a fight. We have no idea how easily she was able to recover after doing that, we have no idea if she can do it in the heat of combat. In short, you're the one making assumptions that she can actually do it in combat. We have no idea if she can do it repeatedly in case her first attempt misses. All I'm doing is pointing out she has no feats of doing it in the middle of a fight and so we can't immediately assume she can easily do so.

It's the exact same reason why we don't attribute bullet time fighting speed to Ozy based on his one-off bullet catching feat. Same reason we don't say that Dr. Strange can simply overflow a person's internal fluids to kill him just because he could refill a mug. None of them have ever done so in combat. I don't know why you're trying to make this more complicated than it should be.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Vault, if you gave me a decent argument then I will acknowledge and respect it. I'd appreciate if you did the same for me. Right now, you are strawmanning the hell out of my arguments... this is not like you.

Cap cut that robot in half with one clean hit. He did so while in combat. Considering that the robot is tougher than humans (able to withstand multiple gunshots) that should be more than enough proof that Cap has the ability to cut someone's head off in the middle of a fight... provided he can land the hit. This is a solid argument. Don't know why you keep contesting this.

I have been saying at multiple points that I do think he can decapitate someone with a clean strike, even if he hasn't done that exact thing onscreen. Because we can infer it from other showings.

Originally posted by FrothByte

Thor has used massive AOE strikes in the middle of a fight. SHIELD agents have all proven combat efficient in the middle of fights. Don't make this any more complicated than it is.

Again, he used it against one type of opponent. So, what proof do you have that it would be just as effective against an opponent who uses different tactics? Do you have proof he can keep his rhythm to build up that attack if he is under continuous ranged fire?

And some unnamed SHIELD operatives have gone down quickly in some episodes as well. These guys have no feats, yet I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they have some skill, because they work for SHIELD. But giving them combat skills on par with named agents, who actually have plenty of feats, is pushing it. Especially, after the ruling Imp recently made about that tectonic plate feat in the one Superman thread.

I'm not making anything more complicated. I am simply including all the relevant information.

Originally posted by FrothByte

AO has not used that astral punch in the middle of a fight. We have no idea how easily she was able to recover after doing that, we have no idea if she can do it in the heat of combat. In short, you're the one making assumptions that she can actually do it in combat. We have no idea if she can do it repeatedly in case her first attempt misses. All I'm doing is pointing out she has no feats of doing it in the middle of a fight.

It's the exact same reason why we don't attribute bullet time fighting speed to Ozy based on his one-off bullet catching feat. Same reason we don't say that Dr. Strange can simply overflow a person's internal fluids to kill him just because he could refill a mug. None of them have ever done so in combat. I don't know why you're trying to make this more complicated than it should be.

See, from my point of view, it's a double-standard. Based on what I read, you seem to want to assume some unnamed agents are very highly skilled, because completely different characters are, and that Thor can use certain attacks against opponents he never has before, because he has used it against opponents who attack differently, but the Ancient One can't potentially do something she was shown doing without issue or strain onscreen, simply because it was not in a fight.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I have been saying at multiple points that I do think he can decapitate someone with a clean strike, even if he hasn't done that exact thing onscreen. Because we can infer it from other showings.

Again, he used it against one type of opponent. So, what proof do you have that it would be just as effective against an opponent who uses different tactics? Do you have proof he can keep his rhythm to build up that attack if he is under continuous ranged fire?

And some unnamed SHIELD operates have gone down quickly in some episodes as well. These guys have no feats, yet I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they have some skill, because they work for SHIELD. But giving them combat skills on par with named agents, who actually have plenty of feats, is pushing it. Especially, after the ruling Imp recently made about that tectonic plate feat in the one Superman thread.

See, from my point of view, it's a double-standard. Based on what I read, you seem to want to assume some unnamed agents are very highly skilled, because completely different characters are, and that Thor can use certain attacks against opponents he never has before, because he has used it against opponents who attack differently, but the Ancient One can't potentially do something she was shown doing without issue or strain onscreen, simply because it was not in a fight.

There is no double standard. You're simply misrepresenting what I said. I NEVER said that something needed to be shown with an exact, specific feat in order to be valid. I don't even know why you think that's what I said.

What I did say was, a feat that was done outside combat does not mean it can be applied in combat, since combat situations can be vastly more stressful and difficult.

So there is no double standard, since Thor, Cap and the SHIELD agents (including new recruits) all have displayed their feats in question while in combat, whereas AO's astral punch was never used in combat. It's that simple.