Originally posted by DarthAnt66
debate me on it then
Originally posted by MythLordYou've been saying this for a while but seem to be skewing your interpretation well in favour of Tyranus without considering anything else. Like:
Yes, Maul was adding power directly into Talzin. Dooku, who was injured, could only add a portion of his power through lightning to Sidious. It makes Tyranus look even better that he aided Sidious to a much greater extent than Maul did Talzin, despite being in a much worse state and offer less of his power.
The comparison is valid because raw power vs raw power has no circumstantial "form advantage" or anything like that. It's simple power against power, and Dooku's came out on top.
1. Viscus noting that the mere process of the ritual could weaken Talzin.
2. That Talzin never fully drained Dooku, thus wasn't at her full power.
3. That Talzin is probably weaker than Sidious as it is, who Dooku was fighting with.
The greatest discrepancy is with Sidious and Talzin, not Maul and Dooku. And there's no evident difference between Maul bolstering Talzin's barrier and Dooku pouring lightning against it.
I feel like taking a break from Maul debating has allowed you/Grey Sentinel/Lord of the Light etc to run rampant free of anyone to keep you in check. Shall I come to make your life difficult, or can you behave for Uncle ILS?
The Talzin vs Sidious part before Maul joins in always looked strangely even to me.
Although in fairness, it doesn't make much sense that Dooku, in such a weakened state, would still be that much more powerful than Maul's full power. Just how big is of a gap is there between each "level of power" in Barlow's mind?
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Clearly untrue; Ahsoka proved to be a legitimate challenge, and Maul should be at least as well off as she. At best, you could argue Maul's chances of victory were too poor for him to want to go for it. Which, keeping in mind that Rebels Maul is not as strong as he was at his peak, is not nearly as impressive as being able to trounce Dooku.
Unfortunately the Dooku "trouncing" came after Dooku kick floored Anakin leaving him winded for a few seconds, and after Dooku fought the Kenobi/Anakin duo together trouncing Kenobi.
So Dooku was still a challenge and a threat to the inconsistent Anakin. But Anakin was the stronger combatant for sure.
Maul's power levels don't seem to have drastically changed one way or the other. So being his clear superior and solidly overpowering Ahsoka puts him roughly on ROTS Anakin/Vader's level IMO. And his TK feats are far superior as well (excluding Mortis).
Originally posted by MythLord
Quantify why an already damaged vehicle is more indestructable than barracks meant to shield royalty incase of a massive war?
LOL, It wasn't already damaged. Vader damaged it, in combat. He was crushing the thing. Meditating to collapse those barracks doesn't even compare Lol
And btw, that not Vader's only Canon Uber TK feat. All of which he does in an instant
Originally posted by MythLord
It means he can pull it off at the drop of a hat later on, Einstein.
Yeah just like he defeated Dooku and Kenobi at the drop of the hat right?
Because that'snexactly what "Vastly more powerful" means right?
Originally posted by MythLord
They all say Vader is > Maul(though Maul is lying, for obvious reasons), but never say substantially. You're making it out like it's a big margin, despite Maul's inferior(Ahsoka) giving Vader hell on her own.I don't want to hear your fanfiction.
His lies are based around the truth. The whole Rebels team have outright confirmed that.
Vader was solidly above Ahsoka, who seems to at least be on par with Prime Kenobi/Maul.
The only fan fiction here is the idea that Anakin was also crushing AT-AT's.
Originally posted by MythLord
Yes, Maul was adding power directly into Talzin. Dooku, who was injured, could only add a portion of his power through lightning to Sidious. It makes Tyranus look even better that he aided Sidious to a much greater extent than Maul did Talzin, despite being in a much worse state and offer less of his power.
The comparison is valid because raw power vs raw power has no circumstantial "form advantage" or anything like that. It's simple power against power, and Dooku's came out on top.
We don't know how much of Maul's power Talzin was utilising.
And again, there's more to a Saber fight than just raw power.
Nobody will argue that Anakin has greater raw power at his disposal than Vader. But what matters is how effectively you can utilize that raw power in direct Saber/TK combat.
Originally posted by MythLord
The Zone!Anakin refers to the enraged Anakin at the end of the fight on the Invisible Hand, dingus, not the one who Dooku was kicking back just a moment prior. When he goes full rage, he kills Dooku in the span of a few seconds. Maul would die in five, honestly. You can tote around how Vader's "substantially more powerful than Maul", he can't kill him in five seconds. Zone!Anakin can.
Except "Invisible Hand" Anakin (as per the OP) includes the Anakin who got drop kicked.
You're whole argument is based on Anakin being better in a single moment which isn't how it works on versus boards.
Both Anakin and Vader are more powerful than Dooku, but whereas Anakin has shown a greater level of superiority in One Single Moment, Vader is far more consistent, and has the far superior TK feats.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
LOL, It wasn't already damaged. Vader damaged it, in combat. He was crushing the thing. Meditating to collapse those barracks doesn't even compare LolAnd btw, that not Vader's only Canon Uber TK feat. All of which he does in an instant
He wasn't crushing it. He was tearing off pieces bit by bit. Hardly something Anakin is incapable of.
Anakin wasn't even in need of concentration to bring down the barracks, and he's still collapsing a structure much larger than an AT-AT.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah just like he defeated Dooku and Kenobi at the drop of the hat right?Because that'snexactly what "Vastly more powerful" means right?
Because beating Dooku is the same as collapsing a structure, right? What a stupid comparison that is.
And you know that he was hindered against Kenobi. By now that should be common knowledge. And not stomping Kenobi doesn't equal being incapable of stopping an AT-AT, lmao.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
His lies are based around the truth. The whole Rebels team have outright confirmed that.
Quotes, please.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Vader was solidly above Ahsoka, who seems to at least be on par with Prime Kenobi/Maul.
HA! No. StarWars.com confirms Maul's superiority over Ahsoka, and he wasn't that solidly ahead given there was a point in the conflict where she effectively stone-walled him.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
The only fan fiction here is the idea that Anakin was also crushing AT-AT's.
And whatever you're trying to push...
Originally posted by Darth Thor
We don't know how much of Maul's power Talzin was utilising.And again, there's more to a Saber fight than just raw power.
We know she would've been utilising as much as she needed to counterbalance Dooku, and it still didn't work. Dooku's power is just considerably ahead of Maul's.
Raw power is one of the biggest driving factors in a lightsaber duel. It's how Kanan beat the Grand Inquisitor, how Bane was beating Kas'im, how Anakin was beating Dooku, etc.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Nobody will argue that Anakin has greater raw power at his disposal than Vader. But what matters is how effectively you can utilize that raw power in direct Saber/TK combat.
Anakin applies it quite well, especially by RotS.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Except "Invisible Hand" Anakin (as per the OP) includes the Anakin who got drop kicked.You're whole argument is based on Anakin being better in a single moment which isn't how it works on versus boards.
Yes, because that one moment is Zone!Anakin. A state that Anakin only replicates later during Operation Knightfall, which is longer than a single moment. And in that state, he makes Dooku look like a child.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Both Anakin and Vader are more powerful than Dooku, but whereas Anakin has shown a greater level of superiority in One Single Moment, Vader is far more consistent, and has the far superior TK feats.
It wasn't one single moment; he was driving Dooku back consistently within the fight.
In one single moment, he was ahead of even Yoda given how badly he was wrecking Dooku. Anakin by Knightfall is in a similar state of mind, hence he rivals Anakin "in that one moment", but it lasts longer than one moment, so it counts. Vader can be more powerful than Dooku all he wants, he's still not going to downright murk him ala Anakin.
Originally posted by SunRazerI don't remember the exact ordering of the panels, but what I do remember is this: the fight started as a lightning duel, but when Maul supplemented Talzin, it was him supplementing her barrier. Ergo, she had to have been on the defensive before he added anything to the fight.
The Talzin vs Sidious part before Maul joins in always looked strangely even to me.
That and the evidence for Talzin being weakened before the fight even started should cause the case for Dooku having a large impact on the fight to crumble.
Originally posted by MythLord
He wasn't crushing it. He was tearing off pieces bit by bit. Hardly something Anakin is incapable of.
Anakin wasn't even in need of concentration to bring down the barracks, and he's still collapsing a structure much larger than an AT-AT.
Yes he was crushing it. Denial will get you no where.
He stopped it, carrying it's weight (Anakin has no such lifting feats), and then began crushing it to bits.
And you know how indestructible AT-AT's are right? Proof the barracks are as durable?
You're blowing the barracks feat well out of proportion. It's not even close to the AT-AT feat. After meditating for a moment he collapsed the supports for the building to drop. Not even comparable to carrying and crushing an almost Indestructible giant war machine like an AT-AT.
Plus Vader redirects torpedoes of X-Wings. Plus he crashes massive boulders to crush X-Wings. Plus he solos Rebel fleets... Need I go on. You're not making any case for Anakin at all that even comes close to such remarkable feats.
Because beating Dooku is the same as collapsing a structure, right? What a stupid comparison that is.
And you know that he was hindered against Kenobi. By now that should be common knowledge. And not stomping Kenobi doesn't equal being incapable of stopping an AT-AT, lmao.
Originally posted by MythLord
Quotes, please.
FPJ has said it twice on Collider Jedi Council. Sam Witwer himself has said it. Dave Filoni has said Maul almost met Vader in Twilight of the Apprentice, and he was going to die to Vader had that happened.
Originally posted by MythLord
HA! No. StarWars.com confirms Maul's superiority over Ahsoka, and he wasn't that solidly ahead given there was a point in the conflict where she effectively stone-walled him.
Maul fought her. There was no superiority.
Vader had her lying on the Temple floor. Just because Vader was distracted by other things, doesn't take away the fact that he did solidly overpower her.
Just as he would to Maul, Kenobi or Dooku.
Originally posted by MythLord
And whatever you're trying to push...
It's The New Canon pushing it, not me.
Originally posted by MythLord
We know she would've been utilising as much as she needed to counterbalance Dooku, and it still didn't work. Dooku's power is just considerably ahead of Maul's.Raw power is one of the biggest driving factors in a lightsaber duel. It's how Kanan beat the Grand Inquisitor, how Bane was beating Kas'im, how Anakin was beating Dooku, etc.
Again, silly proof, and a pretty desperate argument to put Dooku ahead of Maul.
The better argument would be that when Mace thought they were working together that he assumed Dooku was the Master. But I've realized I won't be getting and decent arguments from you.
Originally posted by MythLord
Anakin applies it quite well, especially by RotS.
Still gets drop kicked by Dooku, and fails to protect Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by MythLord
Yes, because that one moment is Zone!Anakin. A state that Anakin only replicates later during Operation Knightfall, which is longer than a single moment. And in that state, he makes Dooku look like a child.
Except this debate isn't about which "moment" was the greatest for Anakin/Vader. But which period he was at his peak.
The OP splits ROTS time period into IH and KF, but again Anakin got dropped kicked on the IH as well so... Although is we were to talk about eras then ROTS Anakin would include Mustafar Anakin. Like I said too much inconsistency. The only consistent thing about ROTS Anakin (or IH Anakin), is that he was > Dooku.
And FYI, if you want to talk single moments, then Mortis Anakin controlling the Son and Daughter was BY Far Anakin/Vader's Peak moment.
Originally posted by MythLord
It wasn't one single moment; he was driving Dooku back consistently within the fight.
Like I already stated, he was clearly more powerful than Dooku... But then so is Vader.
Originally posted by MythLord
In one single moment, he was ahead of even Yoda given how badly he was wrecking Dooku. Anakin by Knightfall is in a similar state of mind, hence he rivals Anakin "in that one moment", but it lasts longer than one moment, so it counts. Vader can be more powerful than Dooku all he wants, he's still not going to downright murk him ala Anakin.
Prove Knightfall Anakin was equal to Zone!Anakin. Feats for KF Anakin that compare..
Because all I see here is fanboy dreams and speculation tbh. No proof or feats or valid and constructive arguments at all.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Except that just didn't happen, Anakin has a stronger and purer connection to the Force than Vader, period. You've already conceded this is the case, just for some reason are having trouble working out why it makes Vader wrong.
No I never conceded that. I said Anakin had more "raw power" in the force. Doesn't mean he could utilize it anywhere near as well as Vader could utilize his power.
I also conceded that Anakin/Vader lost power IN ROTS. That doesn't mean he can't master the force and grow in power again later.
Btw have you seen Rogue One?
Spoiler:
Vader's castle seems to be on Musatafar. A constant reminder of how he got mutilated by Kenobi. What better way to keep that Rage growing inside him, constantly feeding his power.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And you can make whatever assumptions regarding Maul that you like, doesn't change the facts regarding Vader.
So you think TPM Maul >>> SOD Maul then?
Answer the question instead of jumping around a comparison in Canon which is almost exactly the same.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
There are plenty of reasons, foremost among them being that Sidious sought to replace him with Luke, who using his stronger connection to the Force, utterly obliterated him in combat.Where was Vader's stronger and more consistent connection to the Force then?
It;s almost as if Vader lost some "potential" when he got screwed up. Did I not already mention that? Pretty sure I did.
Palpatine was interested in converting Luke in ESB, and we saw Vader beat Luke in ESB.
As for ROTJ, it's almost as if Vader might have been conflicted..
Also he never once used TK on Luke.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Anakin is easily influenced by his emotions yes, what is this supposed to prove other than his performance against Kenobi being an outlier? Bearing in mind that this was the original intention of the fight according to Nick Gillard.
But Vader vs Luke was a consistent performance right?
Originally posted by Beniboybling
He did nothing of the sort, Ahsoka had an advantage over him at beginning of the duel, and even after 1:30 of fighting, he still hadn't managed to penetrate her defenses. And Vader failed to penetrate Kenobi's defenses either, over a similar span of time.
Oh please, he forced pushed her sending her flying to the Temple floor, and then he walked away. He was solidly above her.
Given they stopped to talk a couple of times in that fight, and Kenobi gave his life, we really don't know how long Kenobi could last if both of them just shut up and fight.
But what we do know is that Vader > Kenobi. Don't use 1977 choreography on a tight budget as a way to lowball Vader. I'm sure Ahsoka was Ben's equal at least.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Anakin dismantled Dooku in 15 seconds, there is no comparison.
No he didn't:
?v=eYT3ctPuVRw&t=98s
Fight starts at 1:07 and finished at 2:35.
That's almost One and a half minutes. You don't just get to ignore Anakin's inconsistency and start the fight where you like. Especially when you ignore the breaks in the Vader vs Ben fight.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
On what basis? And if you have some means of proving they are "far beyond" Anakin, by all means knock yourself out.But if your answer is "well Anakin hasn't done nuffin similar and he could't overpower kenobi!!11!!" then pls don't waste my time. 🙂
So wait what, we're just going to assume the guy who couldn't overpower ROTS Kenobi in a force push has TK equivalent to Vader's Awesome feats unless I Prove Otherwise?
Sorry it doesn't work like that. I've made the case for Vader, now it's for you to make the case for Anakin.
Originally posted by ILS
I don't remember the exact ordering of the panels, but what I do remember is this: the fight started as a lightning duel, but when Maul supplemented Talzin, it was him supplementing her barrier. Ergo, she had to have been on the defensive before he added anything to the fight.That and the evidence for Talzin being weakened before the fight even started should cause the case for Dooku having a large impact on the fight to crumble.
What evidence? Viscus' claim?
Talzin exclaims that she's "whole" anyway. Besides, we know that Sidious is factually more powerful than Talzin, yet you're suggesting that a weakened Talzin can still go toe-to-toe, or even equal, with him? There's no reconciliation.
And actually, no, Talzin was still using Lightning when Maul intervened. It was only when Dooku started joining in that Talzin reverted to Barrier, which is part of the argument for Dooku's weakened Lightning contributing more than Maul's power donation.