Originally posted by SunRazerI don't recall the novelisation giving a carte blanche to assume every idea that popped into Plagueis head was in fact Sidious' lol. In fact Luceno himself said that Sheev may have just been boasting. On the other hand there are several strong indicators that that was a charade, and the DS Sourcebook states that Maul was not trained to serve the function of assassin, he was just good at assassinations.
Not really. As long as we have a Palpatine that plans on becoming omnipotent and never planning to die, then he isn't planning on a legitimate successor.And I recall people saying that "Palpatine reveals at the end of DP that Maul was a real apprentice" - I didn't see it anywhere. He confirms that all of Plagueis' ideas were actually his - which includes Plagueis telling Sidious to train him as a mere assassin, nothing more. After that, he makes some reference to him being able to use Maul to get rid of his enemies or something along those lines. Nothing about genuine succession.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I don't recall the novelisation giving a carte blanche to assume every idea that popped into Plagueis head was in fact Sidious' lol. In fact Luceno himself said that Sheev may have just been boasting. On the other hand there are several strong indicators that that was a charade, and the DS Sourcebook states that Maul was not trained to serve the function of assassin, he was just good at assassinations.
Palpatine mentions Maul as one of the ideas that he fed to Plagueis and had Plagueis carefully feed back to him. Plagueis fed Palpatine no ideas about Maul except to train him as an assassin and not as a genuine Sith. Whether Palpatine disobeyed him is irrelevant. The point is that this was Palpatine's original idea - he may have modified it. I'm just saying DP itself doesn't confirm that Maul was a legitimate apprentice as some say. What other sources say is irrelevant to that.
The DSS comes before DP, so it'd be retconned, by the way.
Because Sidious would have fed Plagueis the idea of violating the Rule of Two by training a legitimate Sith Lord to replace him? Nah.
The point is that he was lying, whether he fed that idea to Plagueis or not, it was a smokescreen for his true intentions.
And the Dark Side Sourcebook just reinforces the above.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because Sidious would have fed Plagueis the idea of violating the Rule of Two by training a legitimate Sith Lord to replace him? Nah.The point is that he was lying, whether he fed that idea to Plagueis or not, it was a smokescreen for his true intentions.
And nah, it just reinforces the above.
Firstly, Sidious is admitting to it being his idea. Secondly, even if it was a lie, that only supports my point that DP doesn't indicate that Maul was a legitimate apprentice in any way.
For that matter, can somebody provide the quotes that indicate (in Legends) that Maul was to be a legitimate apprentice?
The Dark Side Sourcebook isn't the only source that suggests Maul was trained in numerous arts, although ultimately that doesn't mean he was intended to be a successor. Perhaps Sidious was lying to him as well, and only teaching him aspects of everything to give him the illusion of being groomed as a true apprentice. There's certainly other sources that indicate that Palpatine had no intention of Maul surpassing him.
In End Game, Maul himself comes to the conclusion that it's possible that he was a mere tool and not a genuine apprentice, if I recall correctly.
Originally posted by SunRazerHow? That Maul being a mere assassin was a lie indicates that he was in fact yes, a legitimate Sith Lord. And DP strongly indicates a deception.
Firstly, Sidious is admitting to it being his idea. Secondly, even if it was a lie, that only supports my point that DP doesn't indicate that Maul was a legitimate apprentice in any way.
For that matter, can somebody provide the quotes that indicate (in Legends) that Maul was to be a legitimate apprentice?You should find the bulk of them here:
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/obi-wan-vs-maul-read-1765585/
The Dark Side Sourcebook isn't the only source that suggests Maul was trained in numerous arts, although ultimately that doesn't mean he was intended to be a successor. Perhaps Sidious was lying to him as well, and only teaching him aspects of everything to give him the illusion of being groomed as a true apprentice. There's certainly other sources that indicate that Palpatine had no intention of Maul surpassing him.The Dark Side Sourcebook states that Maul was not trained to be an assassin, explicitly, that's what's important. But yes, other sources state that Maul was one of the most highly trained Sith in history, and the Ultimate Visual Guide describes him as a "true Sith Lord" - which brings into serious doubt the idea that his curriculum was lacking.
According to Legends, Maul was intended to be the "perfect Sith weapon" and the "violent half" of their partnership, which already makes him much more than a mere assassin. Canon expanded on this by making him a cerebral mastermind as well, and an actual threat to Sidious' designs, other sources state Sidious took an interest in Maul's intellectual perfection, and DP has Sidious musing over the possibility of easing Maul into "public life".
Certainly therefore we can be sure that Sidious intended Maul to be a fully-fledged Sith Lord. Though I admit the question remains as to whether Sidious saw him as a successor, but I don't believe this wouldn't be the case through want of trying. Even if Sidious never truly intended to be succeeded, that didn't stop of him from seeking out the most powerful assets he could find.
In End Game, Maul himself comes to the conclusion that it's possible that he was a mere tool and not a genuine apprentice, if I recall correctly.Only because he discovered the existence of Darth Plagueis. Other sources describe Maul as being led to believe he was Palpatine's successor, and in TCW he states he was to become "so much more."
1. Him being a legitimate Sith Lord isn't what I was contesting. I'm contesting him being a legitimate RoT apprentice - one destined to succeed his master.
2. I'll take a look at them.
3. There's a source saying that Palpatine trained Maul in all walks of Sith life or something. Still doesn't mean he was an intended successor by any stretch of the imagination, though.
4. That's the point. He thought he was going to be a successor in accordance to the Rule of Two, but once he found out about Plagueis, he realized that might have not been the case.
We're in agreement he's not a mere assassin then?
And it refutes the idea that Palpatine was giving Maul a less than full education, tbh.
Which we know is false, because Sidious intended to bump Plagueis off and use Maul as his true second half, Maul was merely buying into the same deception as Plagueis, that he existed outside the RoT.
1 & 2. I'm not disputing that. I know Sidious trained Maul in more than just assassin arts. My point of contention is that Maul isn't listed as a true successor to Palpatine in DP at all.
3. True second half in what sense though? As a rightful successor to Dark Lordship? I doubt it.
And none of the quotes I saw on that page contradict the idea that Palpatine never planned on having an actual successor. At most, his apprentices were designed to be insurance policies in the event that he died. Certainly not his Plan A.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well if you accept that Maul was intended as a true Sith Lord, and that Palpatine spared no pains in training him as such, what are your doubts based on? What substantiates the idea that Sidious never intended to have a successor as of his apprenticeship of Maul?
The fact that Sidious planned to end the RoT and never die, for one. So as I said, Maul was only intended, at best, to ascend to the throne in the event of Sidious dying unexpectedly. He wasn't ever intended to ascend to the throne by killing Sidious in RoT tradition, and in other words, would not have been expected to have more potential than Sidious.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Not really. As long as we have a Palpatine that plans on becoming omnipotent and never planning to die, then he isn't planning on a legitimate successor.
Except him wanting Anakin as an apprentice who would surpass him and would overthrow him.
And yeah Witwer's quotes (with Filoni there) definitely suggest Maul was intended to be a true successor.
Palpatine himself hints as much in the Darth Vader comic.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Except him wanting Anakin as an apprentice who would surpass him and would overthrow him.And yeah Witwer's quotes (with Filoni there) definitely suggest Maul was intended to be a true successor.
Palpatine himself hints as much in the Darth Vader comic.
I said "as long as". So if the conditions aren't met, then yes, Palpatine would want a successor.
I'm mostly discussing Legends here, anyhow.
Originally posted by SunRazerHe only articulated those intentions - to my knowledge - after Maul's death though, nor did it stop him from attempting to train Marek, Anakin and Luke to surpass him.
The fact that Sidious planned to end the RoT and never die, for one. So as I said, Maul was only intended, at best, to ascend to the throne in the event of Sidious dying unexpectedly. He wasn't ever intended to ascend to the throne by killing Sidious in RoT tradition, and in other words, would not have been expected to have more potential than Sidious.
EDIT: He appears to suffer from a sort of cognitive dissonance tbh, he expresses, at some points, his intentions to rule supreme forever, and yet can't seem but help himself in attempting to seek out individuals strong enough to succeed him. In that respect nothing really precludes Palpatine taking on someone strong enough to surpass him, and it can also arguably be extrapolated that Sidious, being drawn to power, would only ever take on an apprentice worthy of his lineage.