How technically skilled was sidious in saber combat?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Because we're basically just discussing knowledge of fighting. If you're not, then we're just discussing different things, so we can move on.

But we deviate from the point, point is that whether of not Dooku has mastered more than Makashi, he only elects to use Makashi in combat and disparages attempts to become a jack-of-all-trades, ergo. he doesn't believe using all seven forms would necessarily make him a better duelist. So why should we fault Yoda for this too?

Again, Mace doesn't use the other forms either. He just knows them so he has the discipline and experience required to attempt Form VII. Yoda uses just Ataru, etc.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I've used the word "know" a lot already, lol.

Looking for the thread atm where you blatantly contradict yourself now 🙂

Might not find it tho 🙁

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I like how Nova changes his stance on the same topic from debate to debate to suit his agenda 🙂

Originally posted by Beniboybling
We are not though, we're discussing skill in lightsaber combat. You wouldn't bring up that Dooku can do Shii-Cho in a vs debate so I don't see why we should here.

Maybe because this isn't a vs debate? And I didn't bring up Dooku knowing Shii-Cho because everyone does.

But we deviate from the point, point is that whether of not Dooku has mastered more than Makashi, he only elects to use Makashi in combat and disparages attempts to become a jack-of-all-trades, ergo. he doesn't believe using all seven forms would necessarily make him a better duelist. So why should we fault Yoda for this too?

I'm not faulting Yoda - my point is that he only uses Ataru, yet he's mastered all forms and is known for being a technical powerhouse. Likewise, Dooku only using Makashi doesn't mean he hasn't mastered other things.

Obviously Dooku's disdain for using all the forms is why he doesn't do that. That doesn't mean he doesn't know them. Yoda uses solely Ataru to compensate for his height, but that doesn't stop him from knowing other forms. Nor Zoltan from fielding Yoda as a candidate for most technically skilled in the thread, and everything you've said about Dooku applies to Yoda as well.

Uh-huh, you've used the fact that Yoda only used Ataru as proof Sidious is better in this very thread, maybe try to be consistent?

Instead of attacking inconsistency that isn't there, you should be keeping your brain from leaking more fluid. My reasoning for Sidious > Yoda in this thread was this:

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yoda isn't stated to be a master of numerous forbidden martial arts, nor Jar'kai(?) and doesn't really use a seamless mix of forms like Sidious does, which is probably the true hallmark of somebody who's mastered everything. In the end, Yoda's still more of a specialist than a generalist like Sidious.

Which is why I also rank Sidious above Dooku. There's nothing I've applied differently between Sidious v Yoda and Sidious v Dooku.

Apart from using a few words loosely, I haven't contradicted myself at all here. Both you and Zoltan are just completely missing the point.

I know what you mean, but it's bullshit. When one talks about skill they don't mean how many things they know, but how good they are. Which is the actual definition of skill:

Definitions of skill
noun
the ability to do something well; expertise.

Sidious mastering more fighting styles doesn't make him do sabercombat better than Yoda, hence he's not more skilled.

Make a thread about who mastered the most fighting styles and there you can proclaim Sidious the best 🙂

Look, we're both talking about different things, so I'm not sure what we're in conflict over. We basically agree with each other when it comes to those different topics anyway. The only problem is that we're conflating the two. So we can just leave it alone now.

Oh, and the definition of skilled (as in the title) is this:

Search Results
skilled
skɪld/
adjective
adjective: skilled

having or showing the knowledge, ability, or training to perform a certain activity or task well.

So yes, it can refer to knowledge as well.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Look, we're both talking about different things, so I'm not sure what we're in conflict over.

Because yours is wrong.

Originally posted by SunRazer
to perform a certain activity or task well.

Which Sidious still doesn't do better 😬

If we're talking about dueling as a whole, then yes. That cramped fight against Yoda was one instance only, and we know Sidious can beat Yoda in dueling as well per the Website.

Quote?

It's a news article, not a blog, so it's canon.

Outwardly frail, Palpatine was in truth a cunning warrior capable of besting even the greatest Jedi warrior in lightsaber combat or by conjuring powerfully destructive Force lightning.

-- http://www.starwars.com/news/star-wars-101-servants-of-the-dark-side

Which is contradicted by the movie, scripts, novels 😬

But nah, Yoda disarmed him and Sidious constantly tried to disengage from a saber fight, forcing a Force duel. That makes it pretty obvious to me who is the better duelist.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Maybe because this isn't a vs debate? And I didn't bring up Dooku knowing Shii-Cho because everyone does.

I'm not faulting Yoda - my point is that he only uses Ataru, yet he's mastered all forms and is known for being a technical powerhouse. Likewise, Dooku only using Makashi doesn't mean he hasn't mastered other things.

Obviously Dooku's disdain for using all the forms is why he doesn't do that. That doesn't mean he doesn't know them. Yoda uses solely Ataru to compensate for his height, but that doesn't stop him from knowing other forms. Nor Zoltan from fielding Yoda as a candidate for most technically skilled in the thread, and everything you've said about Dooku applies to Yoda as well.

and everything you've said about Dooku applies to Yoda as well.

Instead of attacking inconsistency that isn't there, you should be keeping your brain from leaking more fluid. My reasoning for Sidious > Yoda in this thread was this:

And that's exactly what I was referring to, you say we are only discussing knowledge of forms, and yet fault Yoda for his application, which is apparently not relevant, so which is it?

Which is why I also rank Sidious above Dooku. There's nothing I've applied differently between Sidious v Yoda and Sidious v Dooku.

Apart from using a few words loosely, I haven't contradicted myself at all here. Both you and Zoltan are just completely missing the point.

@Zoltan - I already said that I take the movie as merely one instance, not something that would happen every time they fight. In another such instance, it's entirely plausible for Palpatine to beat Yoda.

Anyway, the movie and novel indicate a draw. I know it happens in the script, but the fact that such a prevalent and tense scene didn't make it into the movie leads me to believe that Lucas didn't want it in there because he didn't actually want Yoda disarming Sidious to be seen, lol. So it's "cut", if you will.

Lucas even says that "you're a sucker if you think you're gonna beat him" and "his style is one in that you'll never get the better of him". Gillard says "Sidious' abilities are beyond anything we've ever experienced", including Yoda. Heck, Gillard even says this:

"He's better than Yoda in a way because he has the extra power of the dark side," Gillard explains. "His character is so shrouded that his fighting style should be shrouded as well. The Emperor is deadly dangerous."

-- http://archive.li/hFbAz

And Yoda had the environmental advantage. I'm pretty sure that's actually stated in a quote - which I'll find for you tomorrow if I have the time.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because it's not relevant to his skill in saber combat yeah.

"Skilled" includes knowledge by definition, as I posted above.

But if we are just assessing knowledge of forms as you claimed, why does that matter? His knowledge of lightsaber combat is no less than Palpatine's.

That's what I'm contesting, you donkey. I think Sidious knows more in terms of general combat.

Not the point, and not what I said, read it again.

You're right - that's what I said. I'm clarifying my stance.

And that's exactly what I was referring to, you say we are only discussing knowledge of forms, and yet fault Yoda for his application, which is apparently not relevant, so which is it?

You have. You claimed that we are only discussing "knowledge of fighting" and not application, yet use Yoda's application against him. By your logic it shouldn't matter, Yoda may not use all seven forms in combat but he still knows them. So he's no worse than Sids in the knowledge department.

Then I'll apologize for the poor wording (or I'll "concede and renege" if that's what makes you happy). I meant that I have no reason to believe Yoda can utilize the same seamless combination of fighting styles as Sidious even if he wanted to.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Zoltan - I already said that I take the movie as merely one instance, not something that would happen every time they fight. In another such instance, it's entirely plausible for Palpatine to beat Yoda.

Which is a pretty retarded stance, which you seem to only apply to this fight. If Lucas/Gillard wanted to convey a draw, then they make the fight a draw, not Yoda disarming Sidious.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Anyway, the movie and novel indicate a draw. I know it happens in the script, but the fact that such a prevalent and tense scene didn't make it into the movie leads me to believe that Lucas didn't want it in there because he didn't actually want Yoda disarming Sidious to be seen, lol. Lucas even says that "you're a sucker if you think you're gonna beat him" and "his style is one in that you'll never get the better of him". Gillard says "Sidious' abilities are beyond anything we've ever experienced", including Yoda. Heck, Gillard even says this:

But in the movie Sidious doesn't use a saber anymore after the cut and constantly tries to disengage from Yoda, while Yoda is trying to force a duel. Pretty obvious what's going on there. Sidious got his shit pushed in and now trying to use to Force to win.

And your quote is talking about his power, not his skill as a swordsman so irrelevant.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And Yoda had the environmental advantage. I'm pretty sure that's actually stated in a quote - which I'll find for you tomorrow if I have the time.

How does one have environmental advantage over someone who uses a "seamless mix of forms"? 🙂

Anyhow, shit argument. Yoda didn't have an environmental advantage, unless you are implying Sidious is retarded. Since it was Sidious who went to the Senate pod to beging with. Unless you think Yoda forced him there, in which case he's still better 🙂

1. Actually, I apply it to all fights. But if a fight is won very convincingly, you can be sure that it won't be different if they fight again (unless there's circumstances). That's why I sometimes rate a character's chance of victory out of ten.

And that's the thing. Lucas/Gillard didn't convey Palpatine being disarmed. They deliberately cut it out of the film - because they decided they didn't want it.

2. That could still indicate a draw and Sidious' desire to win the fight quickly/decisively, hence switching to ranged combat.

As for my quote, if you bothered to click on the link, you'd realize the context of the quote - which is about lightsaber combat. Gillard mentions in other interviews that the dark side can improve your lightsaber ability - and we know Force power factors into dueling anyway, so that's a shit comeback.

3. Because Palpatine is bigger, lol. And Yoda forced him back, yes.

No, it doesn't mean Yoda's better, since even AotC Obi-Wan forced Dooku back. I'm sure you've heard of back-and-forths.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And that's the thing. Lucas/Gillard didn't convey Palpatine being disarmed. They deliberately cut it out of the film - because they decided they didn't want it.

Yet they still left the part in where Sidious doesn't have a lightsaber anymore.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. That could still indicate a draw and Sidious' desire to win the fight quickly/decisively, hence switching to ranged combat.

Winning through the force is not quicker unless you are significantly more powerful than your opponent. Which Sidious isn't, and even if he was, but can't end a duel quickly still means Yoda is more skilled.

Originally posted by SunRazer
As for my quote, if you bothered to click on the link, you'd realize the context of the quote - which is about lightsaber combat. Gillard mentions in other interviews that the dark side can improve your lightsaber ability - and we know Force power factors into dueling anyway, so that's a shit comeback.

Sure it does, but it doesn't factor into raw technical skill, which is what this thread is about.

Originally posted by SunRazer
3. Because Palpatine is bigger, lol. And Yoda forced him back, yes.

Yeah, but if he uses a seamless mix of forms then that includes Soresu which doesn't give a shit about things like that 🙂

Originally posted by SunRazer
No, it doesn't mean Yoda's better, since even AotC Obi-Wan forced Dooku back. I'm sure you've heard of back-and-forths.

Bakc-and-forth is one thing. Forcing an enemy into an apparent disadvantage which they logically would want to avoid is another.

Originally posted by SunRazer
"Skilled" includes knowledge by definition, as I posted above.

That's what I'm contesting, you donkey. I think Sidious knows more in terms of general combat.

[You're right - that's what I said. I'm clarifying my stance.

So to clarify, I'm not contesting Dooku's knowledge of the forms. And I was trying to draw a comparison between him & Yoda, the former, as a swordsbeing who didn't use a "seamless combination of fighting styles" because he couldn't, but because he chose not to, he thought wielding one style would be better, or at least just as good. Yoda, I would argue, falls into the same camp.

Then I'll apologize for the poor wording (or I'll "concede and renege" if that's what makes you happy). I meant that I have no reason to believe Yoda can utilize the same seamless combination of fighting styles as Sidious even if he wanted to.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Yet they still left the part in where Sidious doesn't have a lightsaber anymore.

They left in a part where Sidious doesn't use a lightsaber anymore.

Winning through the force is not quicker unless you are significantly more powerful than your opponent. Which Sidious isn't, and even if he was, but can't end a duel quickly still means Yoda is more skilled.

lol If Sidious had a draw with Yoda, I'm sure he'd go to his strong suit (the Force) and at least give that a try.

Sure it does, but it doesn't factor into raw technical skill, which is what this thread is about.

It does factor into what we were discussing these last few posts, though.

Yeah, but if he uses a seamless mix of forms then that includes Soresu which doesn't give a shit about things like that 🙂

Key word being "mix".

Bakc-and-forth is one thing. Forcing an enemy into an apparent disadvantage which they logically would want to avoid is another.

Right, but Obi-Wan forced back Dooku in AotC. So what? Yoda forced Palpatine back, which happened to be the pod, an area of disadvantage that kept Palpatine from forcing Yoda back out.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sure, but the reason I'm finding it non-relevant is because he doesn't use that knowledge to inform his skill.

What? We're not discussing what's relevant to a fight here. The rest of the stuff is relevant to his skill in a holistic sense.

Like what, his "forbidden" martial arts? Not really relevant to a discussion on swords mastery wouldn't you agree? Beyond that Yoda is a confirmed master of all lightsaber styles so...

Saber combat involves more than just using a lightsaber, as I'm sure you're well aware (in fact, don't sources literally say that lightsaber combat is not limited to using a lightsaber?). Martial arts do factor into saber combat, whether passively like Battle Precognition or actively.

Sidious is an ambidextrous master of everything. That trumps Yoda's mastery of the traditional seven.

You went of on an irrelevant tangent that demonstrated a poor grasp of what I was attempting to argue. It was as if we were discussing cats vs dogs and you abruptly began talking about birds. 🙂

I was clarifying my stance, not yours, lol.

So to clarify, I'm not contesting Dooku's knowledge of the forms. And I was trying to draw a comparison between him & Yoda, the former, as a swordsbeing who didn't use a "seamless combination of fighting styles" because he couldn't, but because he chose not to, he thought wielding one style would be better, or at least just as good. Yoda, I would argue, falls into the same camp.

Right, but we know Sidious' style is better than just Grievous/Magnaguard's mix of lightsaber forms. Moreover, Gillard outright says that Sidious' abilities with a lightsaber are beyond that of ever experienced, so that does lend credence to the idea of him being more technically skilled than Dooku or Yoda (whom we already saw in AotC).

Why? Because he doesn't? I refer you back to the Count. Generalists aren't inherently better than specialists, and anyone sufficiently skilled in a single form should be able to at least match Sidious, heck Windu, a specialist, did.

Right, but that's just your sheer skill, not your technical skill or knowledge.

I'm not discussing that.

Anyways, I'm tired. If I'm bothered to post tomorrow, I will.