When does fts matter???

I'm confused on this and KMC is full of highly intelligent people to help me with my question.

When does fts matter?

I am going to use Hulk as an example because if I bash him or give him props, you all don't care, any other character/characters and this thread goes off topic.

It seems like most threads either look at fts when they want too or either ignore them.

Example...if I made a Hulk vs Orion fist fight thread, people would say that it would be a challenging battle due to it, well, being Orion. Hulk has the strength, durability and power edge and based off fts, he should be able to crush Orion with ease but in this case, fts would get ignored (I've debated pages on this battle, I know first hand).

If we made a Captain Marvel vs Wonder Woman or Superman thread, people would say that either of these two is a tier above him due to fts. So on one hand we ignore fts and on another, we pay attention to fts.

So what I'm trying to figure out is, when do we ignore or pay attention to fts? If I made a Titus vs Hulk thread, would you all consider that spite even though Hulk fts of strength and durability piss on anything Titus has done.

If I made a Superman vs Odin thread, would you all consider it spite due to Superman fts of strength, speed and durability. Please let me know and let's keep this convo civil.

It gets murky when you have feats showing two characters with comparable feats.

So no, Orion may not have the lifting feats of Hulk, but he has been shown throughout his history to be a close peer to Superman and Darkseid in strength, and those two have objective strength feats surpassing Hulk.

Originally posted by Cogito
It gets murky when you have feats showing two characters with comparable feats.

So no, Orion may not have the lifting feats of Hulk, but he has been shown throughout his history to be a close peer to Superman and Darkseid in strength, and those two have objective strength feats surpassing Hulk.

Either that or they lowered Darkseid and Superman to make Orion look good. I do recall Firestorm pushing the limits of Orion's strength. It wasn't anywhere near to the amount that Superman or the Hulk have lifted. Thor has recently surpassed it by leaps and bounds as well.

Originally posted by Stoic
Either that or they lowered Darkseid and Superman to make Orion look good. I do recall Firestorm pushing the limits of Orion's strength. It wasn't anywhere near to the amount that Superman or the Hulk have lifted. Thor has recently surpassed it by leaps and bounds.

This. I'm not going to get into a debate on who's strength fts surpass who when it comes to Hulk and Superman. Orion doesn't have the fts though which is what this thread is about. He doesn't even have to be used. The question is about the overall population.

Originally posted by Stoic
Either that or they lowered Darkseid and Superman to make Orion look good. I do recall Firestorm pushing the limits of Orion's strength. It wasn't anywhere near to the amount that Superman or the Hulk have lifted. Thor has recently surpassed it by leaps and bounds.

Everyone has highs and lows. I recall generally the Firestorm feat you're talking about, but I don't remember the particular details. Even if it were very low, a single showing wouldn't erase decadeS of continuity.

And yes, we're talking about decadeS of appearances for Orion. Do you really think Superman and Darkseid were lowered in all of them to make Orion look good? 😕

I mean, the Living Tribunal has zero lifting feats. Based on feats, Hulk has the strength, durability, speed, even skill.

But make an LT vs Hulk arm wrestling thread...and see what happens.

Originally posted by carver9
This. I'm not going to get into a debate on who's strength fts surpass who when it comes to Hulk and Superman. Orion doesn't have the fts though which is what this thread is about. He doesn't even have to be used. The question is about the overall population.

Originally posted by Cogito
Everyone has highs and lows. I recall generally the Firestorm feat you're talking about, but I don't remember the particular details. Even if it were very low, a single showing wouldn't erase decadeS of continuity.

And yes, we're talking about decadeS of appearances for Orion. Do you really think Superman and Darkseid were lowered in all of them to make Orion look good? 😕

Generally speaking, how many lifting feats does Orion actually have? I pointed out the one that I recall, but if you or anyone has any on hand please feel free to admit citations. The Hulk is the epitome of strength. He has his lows but his power set covers this. Orion on the other hand does not have dynamic strength on the level that the Hulk does, so it's not a big deal for people to say that the Hulk or Superman are stronger than him. Just wanted to put that out there in case you think that I may be low balling Orion.

Originally posted by carver9
Then how would we know if he is stronger than Herc without lifting feats? Herc has pulled manhantan without to much difficulty... what has Juggernaut lifted?

🙂

That's like saying Odin is stronger than Colossus when we all know that Colossus lifting feats>Odin.

Originally posted by Stoic
Generally speaking, how many lifting feats does Orion actually have? I pointed out the one that I recall, but if you or anyone has any on hand please feel free to admit citations. The Hulk is the epitome of strength. He has his lows but his power set covers this. Orion on the other hand does not have dynamic strength on the level that the Hulk does, so it's not a big deal for people to say that the Hulk or Superman is stronger than him. Just wanted to put the out there in case you think that I may be low balling Orion.

He doesn't have lifting feats, that's what I'm saying. He only has direct comparisons to peers that do.

I'm not arguing for or against anyone here, I'm just discussing the topic Carver raised. Orion is a great example of someone with minimal (impressive) objective feats. If you look at Marvel you could easily pull out comparable examples like Blue Marvel or even Gladiator.

It's complicated. And the answer switches occasionally.

Hulk, a character with decades of feats, has those feats to establish his credibility. Someone like Zeus doesn't have decades, but his performance against established characters like say, Hulk or Thor, help determine his level.

Hulk for all intentions and purposes is vastly stronger than Zeus for example by feats. But he's obviously not, based on combat

the question has no answer tbh because people will value whichever showing (extraneous feats or either direct combat showings or abc combat showings) they feel best supports their own case, on a case-by-case basis. that isn't a veiled shot at anyone. if i'm bored and feel like playing devil's advocate, i'm as guilty of this as anyone else at picking and choosing. in truth though, even from an objective pov, there really IS no answer. the orion/hulk comparison is as apt as any and illustrates why BOTH sides of the argument have a legitimate point.

hulk's strength feats sh!t all over orion. no one who knows anything about comics can really argue the point (like flash being faster than ss). even if orion fans (of which i am one) could name 3 hulk-style strength feats, for each of those 3 hulk might have....a dozen feats? so, by feats the comparison should be lop-sided.

but the other side can argue from the peer angle (AKA abc logic). by direct comparison orion has performed well against all of dc's top tier people and has appeared at times to even surpass the likes of darkseid.

both sides are equally valid pov's. so how do you resolve the issue? you can't. the best you can do is attempt to reasonably weigh the 2 sides and decide which carries the greater weight (no pun intended, or noticed prolly....lol). in this case, since orion doesn't have many lifting feats to go on, we're left with only the one side to really reason from. is it reasonable to say that if orion can match darkseid in strength and direct combat, even besting him on at least one occasion, he can give hulk holy hell in a fist fight?

i think it's perfectly reasonable. would hulk win a fistfight the majority of the time? certainly, but it is by no means spite, or a stomp any more than hulk would stomp thor in a fistfight.

regarding the question of whether someone is 'weakened' by writers (AKA pis) to make for a better fight? well, that's what makes the question unsolvable. if pis is claimed, then direct comparison using on-panel battles, becomes meaningless to those who claim pis is involved and so one entire pov is thrown out by one side then the argument degenerates into one of validity. and of course not everyone always agrees there WAS pis then you have a huge mess....

generally, where direct combat results are close, extraneous feats can help determine probable winners, but it boils down to what the individual deems most valuable (or what best defends their side...) combat comparisons or feats. your question can't be answered because in many cases there IS no correct answer. /shrug

Feats matter less when you are comparing within the company.

You can power-scale based off of direct showings and editorial mandates etc.

Feats matter more when comparing cross-company. Being cross-company, naturally there can't be any editorial ruling that X character from X company should be equal to Y character from Y company.

Of course, fights are also feats.

It depends on a fight to be honest.

Look at New52 Darkseid and Superman for example. Darkseid doesn't have feats like lifting the Earth for 5 days without Breaking a Sweat like Superman. But he does have the fact he physically overpowered Superman in a grapple. So we can put two and two together and assume he has greater strength.

I wouldn't say punching a character and knocking them out means your physically stronger. Maybe more powerful but not stronger. I think the best way to see strength comparisons in a fight is when two characters grapple.

Striking power will always surpass lifting feats.

imo Feats only count if you using a thread about two people from the same company. When you say Superman beats Thanos because he beat Darkseid to me that feat is irrelevant.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I mean, the Living Tribunal has zero lifting feats. Based on feats, Hulk has the strength, durability, speed, even skill.

But make an LT vs Hulk arm wrestling thread...and see what happens.

You're right on point. So when do we use fts?

Example, people in a thread I was just in was saying that Captain Marvel is a tier below Superman but looking at their fights, they are basically equals. Hell, Superman has even admitted this. Then we have the fts perspective to look at which someone brought up Superman being greater than Cap even though their fights show us something completely different. So, with that said, their fights are being ignored. Then I click on this thread and see a person say Orion is on Hulk's level due to his fights against Superman and Darkseid. WTF. This is why I'm lost. This ft argument is all over the place and is used only to make certain characters look weak. They then say Captain Marvel is on Thor level even though Thor fts poops all over Captain Marvel fts.

Originally posted by carver9
You're right on point. So when do we use fts?

Let me paint you a picture, except I'm too lazy to use MSPaint so you're getting words.

1) Is the result so plainly obvious that I don't need to put any thought into it?
a. Yes. See Hulk vs. LT. Proceed immediately to calling out the OP with your choice of insulting and/or derogatory terms
b. No. Use feats.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Striking power will always surpass lifting feats.