Originally posted by Cogito
Let me paint you a picture, except I'm too lazy to use MSPaint so you're getting words.1) Is the result so plainly obvious that I don't need to put any thought into it?
a. Yes. See Hulk vs. LT. Proceed immediately to calling out the OP with your choice of insulting and/or derogatory terms
b. No. Use feats.
Please read above.
Originally posted by carver9
You're right on point. So when do we use fts?
As with all things....it depends.
Colossus as Juggernaut, for example. Based on implied power, and Colossus' and Juggy's separate feats, Juggylossus should've been waaaaay up there.
In actual fights? Less impressive.
Same with Sodam Yat. By feats, we have Daxamites = Kryptonians. Ion power. In fights? Meh.
On the other hand, we have characters like Darkseid, Orion, Gladiator, Black Bolt etc - who have more fights than lifting feats.
Originally posted by zopzop
Just like IRL. Look up Marius Pudzianowski. Huge (6ft 1 320lbs), ripped, World's Strongest Man 4 or 5 times and gets his ass handed to him in MMA.
Mariusz has done ok in MMA. He has a winning record, and this is despite a major late start and fighting people with way more experience than him.
A martial artist, no matter how good, stands a chance against a grizzly bear however.
Stats matter, seeing as there is always a limit to skill; there's only a limited number of ways to punch, kick, or react afterall.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
As with all things....it depends.Colossus as Juggernaut, for example. Based on implied power, and Colossus' and Juggy's separate feats, Juggylossus should've been waaaaay up there.
In actual fights? Less impressive.
Same with Sodam Yat. By feats, we have Daxamites = Kryptonians. Ion power. In fights? Meh.
On the other hand, we have characters like Darkseid, Orion, Gladiator, Black Bolt etc - who have more fights than lifting feats.
Agreed on all accounts. Answer this. Let's say me and you are prepping to fight, comic characters. On one hand, you have established fts of tossing tractors with ease and on my end, I don't have a single strength ft. We fight and I hold my own. Do we ignore this fight due to you having superior showings of strength or do we accept the fight as is even though I don't have single showing of me being able to battle someone with your strength?
Originally posted by carver9
Agreed on all accounts. Answer this. Let's say me and you are prepping to fight, comic characters. On one hand, you have established fts of tossing tractors with ease and on my end, I don't have a single strength ft. We fight and I hold my own. Do we ignore this fight due to you having superior showings of strength or do we accept the fight as is even though I don't have single showing of me being able to battle someone with your strength?
Depends.
Deathstroke has tagged Flash, Aquaman, WW. All fast characters, as you yourself know.
Does that mean DS = Flash?
Originally posted by carver9
Agreed on all accounts. Answer this. Let's say me and you are prepping to fight, comic characters. On one hand, you have established fts of tossing tractors with ease and on my end, I don't have a single strength ft. We fight and I hold my own. Do we ignore this fight due to you having superior showings of strength or do we accept the fight as is even though I don't have single showing of me being able to battle someone with your strength?
It depends. Do you win the fight or not?
"Holding your own" is a vague term.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Depends.Deathstroke has tagged Flash, Aquaman, WW. All fast characters, as you yourself know.
Does that mean DS = Flash?
Let's say if every time Deathstroke and Flash fight, he's able to keep pace with him. When does consistency come into play or do we still ignore this?
Originally posted by zopzop
Just like IRL. Look up Marius Pudzianowski. Huge (6ft 1 320lbs), ripped, World's Strongest Man 4 or 5 times and gets his ass handed to him in MMA.
Maurius doesn't know how to fight though LOL. Which is one of the largest reasons that people should look at how well a character fights over how powerful another character is, within reason of course. For example; A character that can lift 4 trillion tons, should never have to worry about a character that can lift 4 tons even if that Class 4 can fight as well as Batman (unless chi or magic are involved).
Originally posted by carver9
Let's say if every time Deathstroke and Flash fight, he's able to keep pace with him. When does consistency come into play or do we still ignore this?
DS has tagged many a character that has speed, then. Flash, Kid Flash, WW etc etc.
Would you accept it in a forum fight? He consistently does it, after all.
We have Flash's feats (I'm sure by now you're sick and tired of them, lol). Can I apply DS to it, and say, hey, Flash has outrun DEATH, several times, by casually breaking the time barrier.
DS consistently tags him.
Therefore, DS, based on their fights (ignoring Flash's feats) would speed blitz any and all characters?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
DS has tagged many a character that has speed, then. Flash, Kid Flash, WW etc etc.Would you accept it in a forum fight? He consistently does it, after all.
We have Flash's feats (I'm sure by now you're sick and tired of them, lol). Can I apply DS to it, and say, hey, Flash has outrun DEATH, several times, by casually breaking the time barrier.
DS consistently tags him.
Therefore, DS, based on their fights (ignoring Flash's feats) would speed blitz any and all characters?
Had this same discussion with someone on CV who wanted to give Diana. Superman and Flash feats...
I think it depends on how many showings they have.
Deathstroke has plenty of showings, where, whilst he tags Flash, also has many showings where he is much slower than Flash (hit by bullets, for example).
Therefore, fights don't count as much. Feats do. Because of PIS, or WIS, or whatever, where he has to be shown to be a threat - thus, dumbing down the other side. Why else would Toyman be a fricking threat, lol.
LT? Darkseid? Fights count much more. They don't have as many appearances. ABC scaling is needed. When they enter a fight, it's a pretty damn big deal.
Captain Marvel? He has a fair few appearances. So his feats need to be taken into account. Orion? Fewer - and then, he only seems to be trotted out for fights (he IS the Dog of War, after all). So his fights count for more.
there should be a well established hierarchy for characters within company lines so I don't think feats really applies. if the person is too new then we would just have to wait and see how they compare.
things like strength and speed (quantifiable) threads should be only feats anything else would be speculation. because someone always going to make the argument that "they weren't full strength or holding back".
if author contradicts the feat on panel I'd throw it out altogether because you never know what they intended and what the editor put out.
abc feats can be used in cross company fight threads as is this is the only way to compare a characters unquantifiable skills. this is due to the nature of the comic companies just being in different universes with different physics/rules.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I think it depends on how many showings they have.Deathstroke has plenty of showings, where, whilst he tags Flash, also has many showings where he is much slower than Flash (hit by bullets, for example).
Therefore, fights don't count as much. Feats do. Because of PIS, or WIS, or whatever, where he has to be shown to be a threat - thus, dumbing down the other side. Why else would Toyman be a fricking threat, lol.
LT? Darkseid? Fights count much more. They don't have as many appearances. ABC scaling is needed. When they enter a fight, it's a pretty damn big deal.
Captain Marvel? He has a fair few appearances. So his feats need to be taken into account. Orion? Fewer - and then, he only seems to be trotted out for fights (he IS the Dog of War, after all). So his fights count for more.
So if someone say Superman and Hulk is well above Captain Marvel based off fts (that Cap rarely have due to his low appearances in comics), do we accept that or do we ignore it due to Captain Marvel proving he can hang with/beat top tiers? Another example, Gladiator speed, strength, and durability showings far surpass Captain Marvel but I've seen people give Cap the majority against him. Why are they doing this when Gladiator fts piss on Captain Marvel?
Originally posted by carver9
So if someone say Superman and Hulk is well above Captain Marvel based off fts (that Cap rarely have due to his low appearances in comics), do we accept that or do we ignore it due to Captain Marvel proving he can hang with/beat top tiers? Another example, Gladiator speed, strength, and durability showings far surpass Captain Marvel but I've seen people give Cap the majority against him. Why are they doing this when Gladiator fts piss on Captain Marvel?
You're not understanding my point.
It depends on the number of showings they have, total.
Billy has quite a few showings. So his feats need to be taken into account, more than his fights.
Gladiator does not (relative to Billy). So his fights count for much more than his feats. He is the same like Orion, who has even fewer showings still.
Hulk has TONS of showings. So his fights and feats are all equal(ish) in weighting.
IOW: if a character has very few appearances (LT, In-Betweener, Orion, Galactus) then their fights are a better gauge of their power.
The more showings a character has, and the more they start interacting with other characters, the more their fights get diluted. Lobo is a good example, as are the Lanterns. You yourself acknowledge, in team books Lobo is less impressive. Lanterns are terrible against bricks. That's when their feats become more of a gauge, where writers don't have to dilute them. Batman and Cap are also good examples of this.