Originally posted by Sin I AM
Explain
Both those instances show strength factoring in more heavily than striking.
Ares was able to take Punches from Sentry with nothing to show for it but a bloody lip. What he couldn't take however was Sentry's strength which was shown when Sentry ripped him in half.
Same thing with Nu52 Superman and Doomsday. Doomsday was able to take Superman's hits, yet physically wasn't able to match his strength. It ended with Doomsday getting ripped in half.
Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Both those instances show strength factoring in more heavily than striking.Ares was able to take Punches from Sentry with nothing to show for it but a bloody lip. What he couldn't take however was Sentry's strength which was shown when Sentry ripped him in half.
Same thing with Nu52 Superman and Doomsday. Doomsday was able to take Superman's hits, yet physically wasn't able to match his strength. It ended with Doomsday getting ripped in half.
I think you should reread those fights
Originally posted by Sin I AM
I think you should reread those fights
If you have something to mention about them, mention it.
Cause as far as I'm concerned it shows Nu52 Superman is stronger than Nu52 Doomsday.
And Sentry is stronger than Ares.
I never understood why trading blows with someone like Superman and Wonder Woman do would suggest comparable strength. When instances happen where they grapple and Superman shows dominance as well as having better strength fts than Diana. It just doesn't make sense to call them strength peers.
Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
If you have something to mention about them, mention it.Cause as far as I'm concerned it shows Nu52 Superman is stronger than Nu52 Doomsday.
And Sentry is stronger than Ares.
I never understood why trading blows with someone like Superman and Wonder Woman do would suggest comparable strength. When instances happen where they grapple and Superman shows dominance as well as having better strength fts than Diana. It just doesn't make sense to call them strength peers.
Sentry/Ares aren't comparable. Dont get y u brought them up. He needed an axe to even score a hit
I can't remember the details on Supes/DD because it was a forgettable arc...but his strength is plot driven. He's as strong as he needs to be.
Anyway it doesnt matter how many mountains, buildings, planets someone lifts if a certain villian comes along with zero feats in that regards they will put them on their ass..period. I can't think of any villian with any significant lifting feats but id place money on Thanos over Hulk anyday. It's right there on the panel
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Sentry/Ares aren't comparable. Dont get y u brought them up. He needed an axe to even score a hitI can't remember the details on Supes/DD because it was a forgettable arc...but his strength is plot driven. He's as strong as he needs to be.
Anyway it doesnt matter how many mountains, buildings, planets someone lifts if a certain villian comes along with zero feats in that regards they will put them on their ass..period. I can't think of any villian with any significant lifting feats but id place money on Thanos over Hulk anyday. It's right there on the panel
Ares fights with an axe, when did Ares fail to harm Sentry via fist?
It sounds speculative. The NuSuperman thing sounds like an excuse, Plot strength never helped him against NuDarkseid. I think you missed my entire point completely.
I said those lifting strength feats are impressive, but the only way a character is stronger than another is
A) If they have better lifting feats
or
B) If they physically overpower comparable/the character
Like I said before Darkseid doesn't have any feats lifting the Earth, yet he physically overpowered Superman. So it's safe to say he's stronger. It's putting 2 and 2 together.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You're not understanding my point.It depends on the number of showings they have, total.
Billy has quite a few showings. So his feats need to be taken into account, more than his fights.
Gladiator does not (relative to Billy). So his fights count for much more than his feats. He is the same like Orion, who has even fewer showings still.
Hulk has TONS of showings. So his fights and feats are all equal(ish) in weighting.
IOW: if a character has very few appearances (LT, In-Betweener, Orion, Galactus) then their fights are a better gauge of their power.
The more showings a character has, and the more they start interacting with other characters, the more their fights get diluted. Lobo is a good example, as are the Lanterns. You yourself acknowledge, in team books Lobo is less impressive. Lanterns are terrible against bricks. That's when their feats become more of a gauge, where writers don't have to dilute them. Batman and Cap are also good examples of this.
Originally posted by Badabing
Carver, you've been on KMC for nearly 13 years. How can you still be confused? sneer
Originally posted by carver9
You posting that made it appear as if everyone is on the same page but me when overall, they are not. Is Cap and Superman physical peers? Yes or no
Erm, no, it was my opinion - which was a direct answer to your question. I wasn't sure if you had seen it, and if you had, whether you agreed with it.
And no. Cap has enough showings to show that his fights are not the only thing he has going for him. He has his feats as well.
Just like Deathstroke and Batman, who consistently tag speedsters in their fights, have their feats to tell us that they are not FTL.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Erm, no, it was my opinion - which was a direct answer to your question. I wasn't sure if you had seen it, and if you had, whether you agreed with it.And no. Cap has enough showings to show that his fights are not the only thing he has going for him. He has his feats as well.
Just like Deathstroke and Batman, who consistently tag speedsters in their fights, have their feats to tell us that they are not FTL.
So we ignore statements like this?
Also, you are famous for saying a person's durability doesn't decrease, even while sneak attacked. You do know Cap has knocked Superman out twice, right? The point is, sometimes you have to look past fts. They are equals. If we looked only at fts, no one on Earth is on Hulk's level. No one.
Originally posted by carver9My interpretation of your question is that this is not so much a feats issue as a debater issue. Generally, people want their favorite character to win, so depending on their degree of bias they will emphasize feats -- especially outliers -- or lowball opponent feats, this also dependent on the combatants' powersets, performance histories and hero personalities.
I'm confused on this and KMC is full of highly intelligent people to help me with my question.When does fts matter?
I am going to use Hulk as an example because if I bash him or give him props, you all don't care, any other character/characters and this thread goes off topic.
It seems like most threads either look at fts when they want too or either ignore them.
Example...if I made a Hulk vs Orion fist fight thread, people would say that it would be a challenging battle due to it, well, being Orion. Hulk has the strength, durability and power edge and based off fts, he should be able to crush Orion with ease but in this case, fts would get ignored (I've debated pages on this battle, I know first hand).
If we made a Captain Marvel vs Wonder Woman or Superman thread, people would say that either of these two is a tier above him due to fts. So on one hand we ignore fts and on another, we pay attention to fts.
So what I'm trying to figure out is, when do we ignore or pay attention to fts? If I made a Titus vs Hulk thread, would you all consider that spite even though Hulk fts of strength and durability piss on anything Titus has done.
If I made a Superman vs Odin thread, would you all consider it spite due to Superman fts of strength, speed and durability. Please let me know and let's keep this convo civil.
Open powersets are especially tough to figure because this intros the question: can abilities never shown but logically inferred be used?
For myself, I look at fights as if I were writing the comic, so context is also important. IMO, ultimately it's a judgment call, an overall gut sense involving feats, as opposed to a strict, point-by-point feat analysis.
Originally posted by carver9
So we ignore statements like this?Also, you are famous for saying a person's durability doesn't decrease, even while sneak attacked. You do know Cap has knocked Superman out twice, right? The point is, sometimes you have to look past fts. They are equals. If we looked only at fts, no one on Earth is on Hulk's level. No one.
Wonder Woman. Sneak attacks an injured Batman OUTSIDE of his armour. Fails to put him down. And yes, she's mind controlled - but she's smashing him THROUGH concrete floors. Dropping from from height. Hitting him with enough force to blast through bulletproof glass.
Does this mean Batman is soloing the entire Street tier? WW had the God of War amp at this time, too.
Originally posted by Mindship
IMO, ultimately it's a judgment call, an overall gut sense involving feats, as opposed to a strict, point-by-point feat analysis.
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