US Immigration/Refugee Issue

So this is a pretty big deal and people are up in arms over this.

Firstly, let's make it clear that Trump's executive order is not a Muslim ban. That's stupid American Leftist bullshit. It is every bit as stupid as the idiocy that conservatives spewed about Obama being the anti-Christ or a Muslim. You're an idiot if you call the executive order a "Muslim Ban."

Secondly, I think immigration restrictions are too hard in the US. They need to relax. The wait times need to be drastically reduced. Immigration needs a massive overhaul. Seriously, WTF are they doing when they process the "paperwork" and why isn't EVERYTHING digitized?

And lastly:

So I see two points with the American Left that contradicts itself:

1. They make fun of conservatives because they are pro-life but then don't do anything about the babies once they are born. They don't adopt those babies and invite them to their homes after they are born.

2. But at the same time, they are guilty of the same. They want to invite all of these immigrants to the US but none of them want to adopt those immigrants and invite them to their homes once they are here.

At least American conservatives are consistent in that they don't give a shit about babies once they are born and they don't give a shit about immigrants once they are here. 😐

But we already knew that American Liberals are a bunch of hypocritical self-righteous whiners and that American Conservatives were a bunch of callused assholes. 😐

So what are your thoughts about Trump's executive order and the US' immigration policies?

Nah it's a Muslim ban, just with plausible deniability deliberately worked into it, and I'm glad it's being blocked. 👆

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nah it's a Muslim ban, just with plausible deniability deliberately worked into it, and I'm glad it's being blocked. 👆

Please, do go into detail on how it is a Muslim ban.

Besides Trump's own words before he won? Follow the beard crumbs, I guess.

Here's a story: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/01/29/trump-asked-for-a-muslim-ban-giuliani-says-and-ordered-a-commission-to-do-it-legally/?utm_term=.4bf1a23d487d

Originally posted by dadudemon
Please, do go into detail on how it is a Muslim ban.

- The ban exclusively targets Muslim majority countries, particularly ones where radical Islamic terroism is seen as a threat.

- The ban explicitly excludes minority religions, i.e those not of Islamic faith, from being barred entry to the US.

- The ban explicitly describes its intent to target those who practice "honour killings", mistreat women and persecute other faiths i.e. the bread and butter anti-Islam rhetoric of the right.

- One of Trump's main campaign promises was the "total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States" which upon entering office, he asked his adviser, Giuliani, how he could implement legally.

Yeah, this ban is targeting Muslims, and frankly its ironic that conservatives, who were so insistent on 'calling it what is is', i.e. "radical Islamic terroism!11!1", are now denying this targeting Islam at all, kek.

More ironic is that in the same sentence they say "it's not a Muslim ban!" they say "Trump is just fulfilling his campaign promises!" 😂

Originally posted by Robtard
Besides Trump's own words before he won? Follow the beard crumbs, I guess.

Here's a story: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/01/29/trump-asked-for-a-muslim-ban-giuliani-says-and-ordered-a-commission-to-do-it-legally/?utm_term=.4bf1a23d487d

Still not a Muslim Ban. There is no Muslim Ban.

This is a very easy test:

Q: Is this a Muslim Ban?

A: No.

Follow-up question:

Q: Why is this not a Muslim Ban?

A: Because no one has been banned specifically because they are Muslim. Muslims are still coming into the US by large numbers and almost nothing has changed these numbers during the increased measures against just 7 countries. This is a travel and immigration ban that affects more than just Muslims because even veteran soldiers, from the UK, who have fought in Iraq, are being detained and questioned. This affects 7 countries who are proven to be unstable and have poor vetting processes. This is not a ban, this is a temporary measure put in place on people coming from those countries into the US until more confident measures to vet arrivals from those 7 countries are in place. Additionally, all 7 of these countries have also been assessed as having significant amounts of terrorism, possess significant enough anti-US sentiment to be deemed a serious threat, and are dangerous to travel to by the UK, as well. This is not a US-only idea. And this is not an idea that the Trump administration came up with, either: they are riding on the backs of work the Obama administration already undertook.

Q: So what WOULD a Muslim Ban actually look like?

A: Muslims would be banned. We'd round them up and export them. We'd prevent any from coming to the US, as well. That would be a Muslim ban.

Q: So why are people calling this a Muslim Ban?

A: Emotional knee-jerk reactionism specifically manufactured to be as anti-Trump as possible. Make Turmp look like the most horrible person ever to justify why he is not fit to be your president. The worse you make him look, the easier it is to live with your cognitive dissonance.

And from the article you posted:

"...that's what the ban is based on. It's not based on religion. It's based on places where there are substantial evidence that people are sending terrorists into our country."

Nice information and i must like this thank you for sharing this.

People do know that the Constitution Of America is only for Americans right? For all the screaming, people have completely forgotten that.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Still not a Muslim Ban. There is no Muslim Ban.

This is a very easy test:

Q: Is this a Muslim Ban?

A: No.

Follow-up question:

Q: Why is this not a Muslim Ban?

A: Because no one has been banned specifically because they are Muslim. Muslims are still coming into the US by large numbers and almost nothing has changed these numbers during the increased measures against just 7 countries. This is a travel and immigration ban that affects more than just Muslims because even veteran soldiers, from the UK, who have fought in Iraq, are being detained and questioned. This affects 7 countries who are proven to be unstable and have poor vetting processes. This is not a ban, this is a temporary measure put in place on people coming from those countries into the US until more confident measures to vet arrivals from those 7 countries are in place. Additionally, all 7 of these countries have also been assessed as having significant amounts of terrorism, possess significant enough anti-US sentiment to be deemed a serious threat, and are dangerous to travel to by the UK, as well. This is not a US-only idea. And this is not an idea that the Trump administration came up with, either: they are riding on the backs of work the Obama administration already undertook.

Q: So what WOULD a Muslim Ban actually look like?

A: Muslims would be banned. We'd round them up and export them. We'd prevent any from coming to the US, as well. That would be a Muslim ban.

Q: So why are people calling this a Muslim Ban?

A: Emotional knee-jerk reactionism specifically manufactured to be as anti-Trump as possible. Make Turmp look like the most horrible person ever to justify why he is not fit to be your president. The worse you make him look, the easier it is to live with your cognitive dissonance.

And from the article you posted:

"...that's what the ban is based on. It's not based on religion. It's based on places where there are substantial evidence that people are sending terrorists into our country."

Sorry, but you're incorrect, this is clearly a ban targeted at Muslims.

Also from the story I posted:

“They can't deny that this is a Muslim ban,” Ellison told Dickerson. “On the campaign trail, [Trump] said he wanted a Muslim ban. ... Rudolph W. Giuliani who helped him write it said that they started out with the intention of a Muslim ban and then they sort of 'languaged' it up so to try to avoid that label, but it is a religiously based ban.”

Why I said "follow the beard crumbs". It's pretty obvious what this is.

Originally posted by SquallX
People do know that the Constitution Of America is only for Americans right? For all the screaming, people have completely forgotten that.

Incorrect. Its laws also protect non citizens, even illegals while in the US.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Okay:

- The ban exclusively targets Muslim majority countries, particularly ones where radical [b]Islamic terroism is seen as a threat.[/B]

This point of yours is misleading. It targets 7 countries and if you just consider Indonesia, alone, there are more Muslims in Indonesia than all 7 of those countries combined.

Also, you're making a case for why those 7 countries need more stringent vetting processes...you're making Trump's case in this point of yours.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
- The ban explicitly excludes minority religions, i.e those not of Islamic faith, from being barred entry to the US.

No it doesn't. Are you lying or are you ignorant?

The closest it gets is prioritizing refugee claims from minority religions from these countries. You still have to make a refugee case and get approved.

That's not explicitly excluding anything and they sure as hell aren't excluded. And if they can't make a case, under the existing refugee immigration policies, they still don't get in.

The portion both you and I are referencing is found in Section 5 subsection b. Here's the full text straight from the source:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/01/25/executive-order-border-security-and-immigration-enforcement-improvements

Originally posted by Beniboybling
- The ban explicitly describes its intent to target those who practice "honour killings", mistreat women and persecute other faiths i.e. the bread and butter anti-Islam rhetoric of the right.

You're making a really good case for this being a great executive order and I'm sure even many American Liberals don't want those type of people in the US.

But you're not making a case at all for this being a Muslim Ban. Try to focus on what we are talking about and not your particular agenda. We are talking about whether or not this is a Muslim Ban.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
- One of Trump's main campaign promises was the "total and complete shutdown of [b]Muslims entering the United States" which upon entering office, he asked his adviser, Giuliani, how he could implement legally.[/B]

Why don't you finish the quote instead of being a Fox News Reporter (this is, by far, the most heavy-handed insult I could possibly hand out in a political discussion...I'm not joking, haha...your jimmies should be quite rustled by this).

Here's the full quote:

"Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on," a campaign press release said.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/07/politics/donald-trump-muslim-ban-immigration/

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah, this ban is targeting Muslims, and frankly its ironic that conservatives, who were so insistent on 'calling it what is is', i.e. "radical Islamic terroism!11!1", are now denying this targeting Islam at all, kek.

Is it even a ban at all? No, it isn't. It isn't even a ban. It doesn't matter who it targets. For this to even be a topic of discussion, it has to be a ban to begin with. If it isn't even a ban, then we do not need to entertain whether or not it is purely a Muslim banning.

Q: During the increased measures, were Muslims able to get into the US?

A: Yup.

Okay, okay...let's make this even EASIER and more in favor of trying to fit your narrative of it being a Muslim Ban.

From the 7 countries targeted:

Q: Were Muslims from the 7 countries targeted by Trump's executive order, still able to get into the US?

A: Yes.

Ok.......sooooo......where is this Muslim Ban?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
More ironic is that in the same sentence they say "it's not a Muslim ban!" they say "Trump is just fulfilling his campaign promises!" 😂

Yeah, you can go ahead and have these red herring discussions with someone else. I don't really care about this point of yours nor is it relevant to what we are talking about. So you think conservatives are idiots? Great. I think many conservatives and many liberals, in the US, are idiots.

Topically, I think liberals who truly think this is a Muslim Ban are very clearly idiots.

Originally posted by Robtard
Sorry, but you're incorrect, this is clearly a ban targeted at Muslims.

Also from the story I posted:

“They can't deny that this is a Muslim ban,” Ellison told Dickerson. “On the campaign trail, [Trump] said he wanted a Muslim ban. ... Rudolph W. Giuliani who helped him write it said that they started out with the intention of a Muslim ban and then they sort of 'languaged' it up so to try to avoid that label, but it is a religiously based ban.”

Why I said "follow the beard crumbs". It's pretty obvious what this is.

No, you're incorrect.

Reread my posts. There's no arguing this. This is not my position. This is a very binary topic. This is one of those inexorable realities that no matter how much kicking and screaming anyone does, it will never be a Muslim Ban.

If you think it is a Muslim Ban, prove that it is a Muslim Ban.

Handing out quotes is only handing out quotes. What is happening in reality is what you need to prove.

Prove that it is a Muslim Ban.

Contradict the following with evidence:

"Is it even a ban at all? No, it isn't. It isn't even a ban. It doesn't matter who it targets. For this to even be a topic of discussion, it has to be a ban to begin with. If it isn't even a ban, then we do not need to entertain whether or not it is purely a Muslim banning.

Q: During the increased measures, were Muslims able to get into the US?

A: Yup.

Okay, okay...let's make this even EASIER and more in favor of trying to fit your narrative of it being a Muslim Ban.

From the 7 countries targeted:

Q: Were Muslims from the 7 countries targeted by Trump's executive order, still able to get into the US?

A: Yes.

Ok.......sooooo......where is this Muslim Ban?"

Originally posted by Robtard
Incorrect. Its laws also protect non citizens, even illegals while in the US.

Actually no. The laws are written to protect Americans first, the second anyone from a different country threatens the life of Americans while on Americans soils, they are deemed enemies of the state or Country.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, you're incorrect.

Reread my posts. There's no arguing this. This is not my position. This is a very binary topic. This is one of those inexorable realities that no matter how much kicking and screaming anyone does, it will never be a Muslim Ban.

If you think it is a Muslim Ban, prove that it is a Muslim Ban.

Handing out quotes is only handing out quotes. What is happening in reality is what you need to prove.

Prove that it is a Muslim Ban.

Contradict the following with evidence:

"Is it even a ban at all? No, it isn't. It isn't even a ban. It doesn't matter who it targets. For this to even be a topic of discussion, it has to be a ban to begin with. If it isn't even a ban, then we do not need to entertain whether or not it is purely a Muslim banning.

Q: During the increased measures, were Muslims able to get into the US?

A: Yup.

Okay, okay...let's make this even EASIER and more in favor of trying to fit your narrative of it being a Muslim Ban.

From the 7 countries targeted:

Q: Were Muslims from the 7 countries targeted by Trump's executive order, still able to get into the US?

A: Yes.

Ok.......sooooo......where is this Muslim Ban?"

Sorry, dude, it's very clear that this is both a ban and it's intended target is Muslims. Just because not every single Muslim in the world was targeted, doesn't negate the truth of the Trump cabinet's intentions.

Originally posted by SquallX
Actually no. The laws are written to protect Americans first, the second anyone from a different country threatens the life of Americans while on Americans soils, they are deemed enemies of the state or Country.

You're very confused. Laws still remain in play with criminals. eg An illegal immigrant still has the right to due process while in the US; athorities just can't shoot them while in jail, as much as you people would love that to be legal.

From the 14th Amendment: "nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Key words, "any person".

Originally posted by Robtard
"Those white people who hung black people back in the Jim Crow days, were they even really racist? They never hanged black people in Africa or the Caribbean."

Sorry, dude, it's very clear that this is both a ban and it's intended target is Muslims. Just because not every single Muslim in the world was targeted, doesn't negate the truth of the Trump cabinet's intentions.

So I have to drag you kicking and screaming to reluctantly admit that it isn't a Muslim Ban?

You have still yet to counter-argue the central points.

Debate this:

"Is it even a ban at all? No, it isn't. It isn't even a ban. It doesn't matter who it targets. For this to even be a topic of discussion, it has to be a ban to begin with. If it isn't even a ban, then we do not need to entertain whether or not it is purely a Muslim banning.

Q: During the increased measures, were Muslims able to get into the US?

A: Yup.

Okay, okay...let's make this even EASIER and more in favor of trying to fit your narrative of it being a Muslim Ban.

From the 7 countries targeted:

Q: Were Muslims from the 7 countries targeted by Trump's executive order, still able to get into the US?

A: Yes.

Ok.......sooooo......where is this Muslim Ban?"

Edit - If someone stated, "This is increased screening and restrictions on people entering the country from any of these 7 countries." Then I would agree with that. A "Muslim Ban" it is most certainly not.

We're just going in circles. But it's a ban and Muslims are the intended target, even if other people as a side effect were affected in some manner. Just going to have to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by dadudemon
This point of yours is misleading. It targets 7 countries and if you just consider Indonesia, alone, there are more Muslims in Indonesia than all 7 of those countries combined.

Also, you're making a case for why those 7 countries need more stringent vetting processes...you're making Trump's case in this point of yours.

And I'm making a case for why its designed to target Islam, come up with justifications in your own time.

No it doesn't. Are you lying or are you ignorant?

The closest it gets is prioritizing refugee claims from minority religions from these countries. You still have to make a refugee case and get approved.

That's not explicitly excluding anything and they sure as hell aren't excluded. And if they can't make a case, under the existing refugee immigration policies, they still don't get in.

The portion both you and I are referencing is found in Section 5 subsection b. Here's the full text straight from the source:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/01/25/executive-order-border-security-and-immigration-enforcement-improvements

You're making a really good case for this being a great executive order and I'm sure even many American Liberals don't want those type of people in the US.

But you're not making a case at all for this being a Muslim Ban. Try to focus on what we are talking about and not your particular agenda. We are talking about whether or not this is a Muslim Ban./quote]I'm making a case for why it demonstrates discriminatory intent, and assuming you don't dispute my conclusions and agree with me that this ban is targeting Islam.

[quote]Why don't you finish the quote instead of being a Fox News Reporter (this is, by far, the most heavy-handed insult I could possibly hand out in a political discussion...I'm not joking, haha...your jimmies should be quite rustled by this).

Here's the full quote:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/07/politics/donald-trump-muslim-ban-immigration/

Is it even a ban at all? No, it isn't. It isn't even a ban. It doesn't matter who it targets. For this to even be a topic of discussion, it has to be a ban to begin with. If it isn't even a ban, then we do not need to entertain whether or not it is purely a Muslim banning.

Q: During the increased measures, were Muslims able to get into the US?

A: Yup.

Okay, okay...let's make this even EASIER and more in favor of trying to fit your narrative of it being a Muslim Ban.

From the 7 countries targeted:

Q: Were Muslims from the 7 countries targeted by Trump's executive order, still able to get into the US?

A: Yes.

On the other hand, does even the most shallow of attempts to interrogate the intent behind this ban reveals its anti-Muslim biased? Yeeesss.

Yeah, you can go ahead and have these red herring discussions with someone else. I don't really care about this point of yours nor is it relevant to what we are talking about. So you think conservatives are idiots? Great. I think many conservatives and many liberals, in the US, are idiots.

Topically, I think liberals who truly think this is a Muslim Ban are very clearly idiots.

Originally posted by Robtard
We're just going in circles. But it's a ban and Muslims are the intended target, even if other people as a side effect were affected in some manner. Just going to have to agree to disagree.

It is not an "agree to disagree" issue though. People are not entitled to their own facts.

Trump promised to ban Muslims from entering the U.S. during his campaign. Giuliani, who drafted the executive order, is on record stating that its intent is to ban Muslims from entering the U.S. And Trump, Conway, Spicer, and other administration officials have publicly referred to the policy as a ban.

Are we not supposed to believe our own eyes and ears? Is all of this obfuscation from Trump supporters not political correctness? Are these not the same people who "tell it like it is?" It is a Muslim ban, flat out.

Originally posted by Robtard
We're just going in circles. But it's a ban and Muslims are the intended target, even if other people as a side effect were affected in some manner. Just going to have to agree to disagree.

Okay.