Why isn't Bane's "strongest" accolades taken seriously?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Character opinion retconing objecive srouce? That's rich. Even more so because in the same novel Yoda says Mace is at least equal to Dooku in neutral ground. So if Mace = Sith Dooku, how could Jedi Dooku be > Mace?

Yep, it's entirely possible. Not only is it a valid and reliable character opinion in Yoda, but it's clearly supposed to carry weight from the author (it's part of how Dooku's Jedi past is introduced to us). And as I said, there's another quote from the novel which is actually omniscient and may well be saying the same thing. Omniscience just eliminates the possibility of fallibility on the quote's part. It doesn't make the quote unable to be retconned.

Secondly, Yoda's commentary on Mace and Dooku was regarding lightsaber combat. This is regarding Force power alone. Also, nowhere does Yoda say that Mace is at least equal to Dooku. He says that Mace might have been the only one who was equal to Dooku.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. Given that it contradicts omniscient fact files, and its from someone who states multiple his love for dooku, I take the fact file over it.
2. Actually it was in Republic: Emissaries to Malastare, which is still well after aotc came out. Windu was stated as being at the top of his class.
3. Speculation. I could argue that given mace was younger than dooku, he could have grown more over tcw in addition to his growth in shatterpoint.

1. Omniscience doesn't make quotes immutable. They can still be retconned. And as I said, there's another quote from Y: DR from the omniscient perspective which may also be saying the same thing.

2. Dooku isn't in Mace's class, though. He's decades older. That'd be like me taking quotes about Dooku being far above his peers and using that against Mace.

3. Speculation based on evidence, of course. Dooku acquired significant Force knowledge upon joining the Sith, retrieving holocrons which are specifically noted to have increased his powers, etc.

1. They can be retconned, but imo, the first quote isn't enough. The second quote could be referring to dooku at a specific time. Given that dooku is a couple decades older than mace as you've pointed out, dooku could have been an appretince at a different. Besides its talking about dooku as an appretince not as a jedi overall.
2. Fair point
3. No reason why mace facing his inner darkness wouldn't be a significant point of growth.

1. Well, it's referring to Dooku in the present tense. And he's still an apprentice of the Order because he was still trained by the Order, even if he's attained higher ranks afterwards. I don't see the point of the author repeatedly prescribing Dooku with accolades that would only be applicable to him more than half a century before the novel itself, lol. They're obviously supposed to refer to Dooku at his peak as a Jedi.

3. Which leaves us back at square one, lol.

1.Yoda was also still trained by the order, if you intepret it as such, that could apply to yoda as well.
2. The first quote was intended to give yoda a sad character moment where we felt bad. The second quote was a reference to the ending of the previous chapter for a smooth transition to their previous chapter where we all felt bad for yoda.
3. like an "everconducting loop"

Mace = Dooku >>>>>>>>>>> Bastila.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1.Yoda was also still trained by the order, if you intepret it as such, that could apply to yoda as well.
2. The first quote was intended to give yoda a sad character moment where we felt bad. The second quote was a reference to the ending of the previous chapter for a smooth transition to their previous chapter where we all felt bad for yoda.
3. like an "everconducting loop"

1. Yoda is the obvious exception, perhaps with Anakin.

2. They can create sympathy for Yoda without undermining their actual purpose.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Secondly, Yoda's commentary on Mace and Dooku was regarding lightsaber combat. This is regarding Force power alone. Also, nowhere does Yoda say that Mace is at least equal to Dooku. He says that Mace might have been the only one who was equal to Dooku.

Yes, but you also always argue that their skill is on par. If their skill is on par, but Sith Dooku > Jedi Dooku > Mace in the Force then they again can't be equal. You are trying to have your cake and eat it too.

lol Just because power influences skill doesn't mean that X has to be more skilled or Y more powerful because of this or that. I thought you argued that Obi-Wan was almost on par with Dooku in sabers but clearly behind in Force. Or he's on par with Maul in sabers but inferior in Force. etc.

Originally posted by SunRazer
lol Just because power influences skill doesn't mean that X has to be more skilled or Y more powerful because of this or that.

Can you rephrase this coherently?

Originally posted by SunRazer
I thought you argued that Obi-Wan was almost on par with Dooku in sabers but clearly behind in Force.

Key word "almost". That's not the same as being equal.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Or he's on par with Maul in sabers but inferior in Force. etc.

RotS Kenobi is neither on par with him in sabers nor inferior in the Force 🙂

1. Just because power has an effect on skill doesn't mean that X can't be more powerful than Y despite being evenly skilled.

2. Still a much smaller gap than the one in power.

3. TCW Obi-Wan, obviously. Sounds like you're agreeing with me. 🙂

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Just because power has an effect on skill doesn't mean that X can't be more powerful than Y despite being evenly skilled.

2. Still a much smaller gap than the one in power.

3. TCW Obi-Wan, obviously. Sounds like you're agreeing with me. 🙂

1. Naturally. But then they aren't equal.

2. Because in the physical department Kenobi isn't that far off from Dooku, since he doesn't have to compensate for his age.

3. There's no quote, to my knowledge, that says Maul is equal or superior to Kenobi skill wise, so this arguments is irrelevant.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Yoda is the obvious exception, perhaps with Anakin.

2. They can create sympathy for Yoda without undermining their actual purpose.

Dooku and mace being stated as equals as duelists in dark rendovous doesn't remotely imply windu is as powerful. Comparatively, given dooku's willigness/variety he's the better force user regardless of whether there's a raw power gap. That being said mace can be conisdered the superior duelistt though marginally due to starships and vehicles+nick gillard. While dooku did become more skilled as a sith, mace fullly mastered vapaad afterwards. Furthermore by rots mace's inner darkness was increasing. There's also mace's superior physical stamina/strength. While dooku has dealt with strength orientated fighters, he's never succesfully dealt with someone who had on par skill in addition to superior physicals

And no. TCW kenobi is>maul as a duelist, both of their duels show him as superior despite maul being shown as more powerful(albeit with circumstances)

@Rock -

1. I'm not saying Yoda's the obvious exception on merit of his power. I'm saying Yoda's the obvious exception to "apprentice" given that he's referring to junior Jedi compared to himself and more than likely is referring to Jedi that he's personally taught.

2. No, the purpose is to establish how great Dooku was to emphasize the loss caused by his departure from the Order. That's the authorial intent. Sympathy for Yoda would be a side effect, nothing more.

3. I don't agree with that, but we're moving increasingly away from the point at hand. And that would support my point anyways.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
1. Naturally. But then they aren't equal.

2. Because in the physical department Kenobi isn't that far off from Dooku, since he doesn't have to compensate for his age.

3. There's no quote, to my knowledge, that says Maul is equal or superior to Kenobi skill wise, so this arguments is irrelevant.

Approximations work fine. They don't have to be exactly equal for my point to work, lol.

Secondly, even if you hold that Dooku and Mace are equal in sabers and thus must be equal in Force, he's still factually above Revan, so my point stands.

I wasn't referring to the first quote which is subjectiive and is coming from someone who had a clear attachment to dooku that he only let go off at the end of the novel.
2. Yea,the emotional loss, hence why you have yoda's ears sadly flapping and the council looking away.
3. It was intended for zoltan. Saying them being equals/near equals as duelists makes them equals in the force is ridculous. And yea this discussion is ridicoulously off topic. And yes dooku/mace ar eboth>revan or at least pre-sor revan

Exar Kun was more powerful than Qel-Droma, but the two still stalemated each other in a duel. Yoda and Sidious rivalled each other in Force powers(with Sidious perhaps even being more powerful) yet Yoda was at least his equal in saber combat. Sidious and Talzin are comparable in power, yet Sidious can stomp her in saber combat.

Being more powerful doesn't always equate to being more skilled, especially not when the power gap isn't that big to begin with.
Also, it's not really hard to see Dooku surpassing Windu as a swordsman, even if by a microscopic margin.

Originally posted by MythLord
Exar Kun was more powerful than Qel-Droma, but the two still stalemated each other in a duel. Yoda and Sidious rivalled each other in Force powers(with Sidious perhaps even being more powerful) yet Yoda was at least his equal in saber combat. Sidious and Talzin are comparable in power, yet Sidious can stomp her in saber combat.

Being more powerful doesn't always equate to being more skilled, especially not when the power gap isn't that big to begin with.
Also, it's not really hard to see Dooku surpassing Windu as a swordsman, even if by a microscopic margin.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. Saberskill obviously =/power but sidious is at least as good as yoda saber wise. Kun vs quel droma is a fair exaple though

Eh, both the RotS Script and RotS Junior novel had Yoda driving Sidious back in pure saber combat. Then again, Sidious returned the favour. But the point is a lot of sources either place them as equals in power, with Yoda as the superior swordsman, or Yoda being inferior in the Force but still equal in saber combat.
So clearly it's not just Force power that drives a duel.

Innate talent and power is usually very important, but at times people put too much stock in it.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
2. Per gillard mace>=dooku saberwise. There's also mace being the more skilled jedi before both had skill boosts

Gillard only says Vaapad!Mace is a 9; normal Mace is an 8, much like Dooku. And that quote is retconned by Fact File, which notes Dooku was second in the Order to Yoda as a swordsman(thus, at least Mace's equal).

Originally posted by MythLord
Eh, both the RotS Script and RotS Junior novel had Yoda driving Sidious back in pure saber combat. Then again, Sidious returned the favour. But the point is a lot of sources either place them as equals in power, with Yoda as the superior swordsman, or Yoda being inferior in the Force but still equal in saber combat.

Innate talent and power is usually very important, but at times people put too much stock in it.

Gillard only says Vaapad!Mace is a 9; normal Mace is an 8, much like Dooku. And that quote is retconned by Fact File, which notes Dooku was second in the Order to Yoda as a swordsman(thus, at least Mace's equal).