Nah, Dooku can still be superior to Mace by an extremely small margin skill-wise and still be in 8 territory, just barely closer to 9 than Windu who's already pretty close to crossing the border.
But like I said, Dooku being superior to Windu skill-wise is only a possibility, it's not a sure thing. Given multiple sources say as much, their respective mastery of the lightsaber is similar, and their feats are similar, the two are pretty much dead even in lightsaber combat, IMHO.
Dooku's just a somewhat better Force user.
1. If mace is bordering he's on the border, you can't come closer to 9 than the border betweem it. If dooku is also bordering with mace there's no more room to be higher because if you're on the border, getting closer would put you on 9. Off course there's the mattter of the fact file which you can take to argue dooku is more skilled.
2. True
3. Yea
Actually, the fact file applies to them as jedi. Given that both had boosts later on, and that its stated windu was able to eclipse him eventually as a jedi, it doesn't invalidate gillard's ranking.
While dooku's edge via willingness + lightning is bigger than the marginal skill edge mace may have the skill edge would likely be more relevant.. Mace's use of juyo would make dooku had pressed to make use of the force. There's also mace potentially being able to deal with lightning without a saber as he attempted to deflect the emperor's lightning. Furthermore in a tk bout, mace's durability would serve him well. It could go either way
I think you might be taking "bordering" too literally. When "to border" on something is used in such a matter, it's usually defined as "to be very near to a particular quality, feeling, state" "To come close to being something, especially in association, meaning, or intent"(took those out of dictionaries).
So what Gillard is saying isn't that Mace is literally a step away from 9, just that he's pretty close to it while still being an 8. Dooku can still be "an 8, verging on 9" and be superior to Windu, the gap just needs to be incredibly small and between those two a gap in swordsmanship is small:
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
While dooku's edge via willingness + lightning is bigger than the marginal skill edge mace may have the skill edge would likely be more relevant.. Mace's use of juyo would make dooku had pressed to make use of the force. There's also mace potentially being able to deal with lightning without a saber as he attempted to deflect the emperor's lightning. Furthermore in a tk bout, mace's durability would serve him well. It could go either way
Eh, Dooku has used the Force while pressed before and always finds a way to make openings for that, its kinda how he operates. Mace's Barrier can deflect Dooku's lightning. I'd wager that superior versatility, willingness and magnitude with regards to Force powers would still win out against Windu and his slight physical advantage, though.
Originally posted by MythLord
I think you might be taking "bordering" too literally. When "to border" on something is used in such a matter, it's usually defined as "to be very near to a particular quality, feeling, state" "To come close to being something, especially in association, meaning, or intent"(took those out of dictionaries).So what Gillard is saying isn't that Mace is literally a step away from 9, just that he's pretty close to it while still being an 8. Dooku can still be "an 8, verging on 9" and be superior to Windu, the gap just needs to be incredibly small and between those two a gap in swordsmanship is small:
Eh, Dooku has used the Force while pressed before and always finds a way to make openings for that, its kinda how he operates. Mace's Barrier can deflect Dooku's lightning. I'd wager that superior versatility, willingness and magnitude with regards to Force powers would still win out against Windu and his slight physical advantage, though.
1. Eh, Gillard only said Maul and Dooku were 8s when asked in what tier they fall into. We can't be sure where in 8 they are, but Dooku, given all his feats and accolades, should certainly be on the higher spectrum.
2. Actually, he fought beings more powerful(who had aid) than him and effectively used both Force augmentation and Force powers to take them out. Mace didn't hold all of the hundreds of tons. He first rode the wave/avalanche out until it greatly diminished and held the last remnants of it:
"The landslide built into a wave of its own that filled in the gully as it rolled down toward the steamcrawler and the screaming, sobbing children-and on the very crest of that wave of dirt and rock, backpedaling furiously to keep from being sucked under by the landslide's roll, came Mace Windu.
Mace rode that crest while the wave sank and flattened and finally lurched to a halt, its last remnants trickling into a ridge that joined Mace's position with the corner of the steamcrawler's cabin."
-- Shatterpoint
Dooku's feats of domination against characters like Obi-Wan, Ventress and Quinlan should also exceed this feat considerably. And his cruiser feat is still superior to this one. Tyranus also has other nice feats up his belt like:
- lifting over a dozen obelisks when an enraged Savage Opress, who can push around ships around this timeframe, was barely capable of lifting two
- easily performing Force feats Sorzus Syn, one of Sidious' most powerful predecessors and rival of Karness Muur, deemed complex
- forming vacuums/cages of energy(Dark Energy Traps) that withstand lightsaber strikes and require the full dedication of Jedi Masters to break out of
- mind-fugging Kenobi by showing him visions of Ancient Sith Lords(this could be attributed to just the Sith Spirits taunting him, I'll admit) and then visions Qui-Gon Jinn taunting him(this is definitely Dooku's doing, though)
- being too strong in the Force for Savage and Asajj to defeat him
- leaving pools of darkness behind when he used the Force
- collapsing cave ceilings easily
- pulling a Jedi Master onto his lightsaber easily
To be fair, most of these aren't above what Windu can accomplish, but they're pretty neat feats.
Originally posted by MythLord
1. Eh, Gillard only said Maul and Dooku were 8s when asked in what tier they fall into. We can't be sure where in 8 they are, but Dooku, given all his feats and accolades, should certainly be on the higher spectrum.2. Actually, he fought beings more powerful(who had aid) than him and effectively used both Force augmentation and Force powers to take them out. Mace didn't hold all of the hundreds of tons. He first rode the wave/avalanche out until it greatly diminished and held the last remnants of it:
"The landslide built into a wave of its own that filled in the gully as it rolled down toward the steamcrawler and the screaming, sobbing children-and on the very crest of that wave of dirt and rock, backpedaling furiously to keep from being sucked under by the landslide's roll, came Mace Windu.
Mace rode that crest while the wave sank and flattened and finally lurched to a halt, its last remnants trickling into a ridge that joined Mace's position with the corner of the steamcrawler's cabin."
-- Shatterpoint
Dooku's feats of domination against characters like Obi-Wan, Ventress and Quinlan should also exceed this feat considerably. And his cruiser feat is still superior to this one. Tyranus also has other nice feats up his belt like:
- lifting over a dozen obelisks when an enraged Savage Opress, who can push around ships around this timeframe, was barely capable of lifting two
- easily performing Force feats Sorzus Syn, one of Sidious' most powerful predecessors and rival of Karness Muur, deemed complex
- forming vacuums/cages of energy(Dark Energy Traps) that withstand lightsaber strikes and require the full dedication of Jedi Masters to break out of
- mind-fugging Kenobi by showing him visions of Ancient Sith Lords(this could be attributed to just the Sith Spirits taunting him, I'll admit) and then visions Qui-Gon Jinn taunting him(this is definitely Dooku's doing, though)
- being too strong in the Force for Savage and Asajj to defeat him
- leaving pools of darkness behind when he used the Force
- collapsing cave ceilings easily
- pulling a Jedi Master onto his lightsaber easilyTo be fair, most of these aren't above what Windu can accomplish, but they're pretty neat feats.
2. Right before the quoted section the landslide grew larger(and this is after it was hundreds of tons)
3. Regarding obi wan, while he certainly can ragdoll him, thats at least partially due to speed, an edge there's no reason to think mace would have over dooku. Also its worth noting that dooku felt the needed to "summon power form across the universe" before being able to blast through kenobi's defenses earlier on. I think Mace can replicate those.
On oppress, using season 3 oppress is troublesome especially considering what oppress did to dooku+ventress...
While they're all nice showings, I don't think they put him above mace
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. We can be sure that mace is at the very high top, even if we don't take bordering literally. While dooku logically should be on the higher end it would have to be at the absolute best for dooku to be>wind and very close to the best cas escenario for him to be an exact equal going by gillard's sytem. And this is assuming we don't take gillard's word literally.
And given the vast plethora of sources stating Dooku and Mace are equals, and their respective hype/feats/accolades being pound-for-pound the same, yeah the "close to best case scenario" is the most likely one in this situation.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
2. Right before the quoted section the landslide grew larger(and this is after it was hundreds of tons)
Doesn't change the fact that Mace only held back it's very last remnants.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
3. Regarding obi wan, while he certainly can ragdoll him, thats at least partially due to speed, an edge there's no reason to think mace would have over dooku. Also its worth noting that dooku felt the needed to "summon power form across the universe" before being able to blast through kenobi's defenses earlier on. I think Mace can replicate those.
Eh, it's implied that Kenobi might've countered but to what degree of success is unknown. And Dooku "summoning power from across the universe" is Stover's hyperbolic way of saying: he drew on the Force, something any Force user does when they use telekinesis. And it only took "a negligent whipcrack of [that] power" to take Obi-Wan out.
Mace can replicate hurling Kenobi, but I don't think he'll replicate making Quinlan Vos a puppet and one-shotting Asajj by lifting a finger.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
On oppress, using season 3 oppress is troublesome especially considering what oppress did to dooku+ventress...
An enraged Opress who caught them off-guard, yeah. :/
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
While they're all nice showings, I don't think they put him above mace
Honestly, the Sorzus Syn comparison and Dark Energy Traps(also incapacitating Anakin who can break free of those Dark Energy traps) are better than what Mace has Force-wise.
Originally posted by SunRazer
It's not hard to see Dooku bordering on 9 when he's managed to hold his own against Yoda, a level 9. Gillard has gone on record saying that the difference between a level 8 and a level 9 is enormous, so Dooku is obviously on the higher side of level 8 and probably on the border.
Assuming Yoda was going all out. On Vjun where Dooku was amped and Yoda was weakened he still lost. On top of it all Anakin, another 9, shit all over Dooku like nothing.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Assuming Yoda was going all out. On Vjun where Dooku was amped and Yoda was weakened he still lost. On top of it all Anakin, another 9, shit all over Dooku like nothing.
What suggests Yoda wasn't going all out? He was trying to stop Dooku all the same. It's arguable if Yoda was weakened on Vjun since Whie was empowered, and Yoda isn't noted to feel anything other than a state of near-bloodlust that almost compels him to destroy Dooku. If you're using Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, then Yoda claims that Dooku and Mace are equals in that novel, so Dooku'd still be a level 8 bordering on a level 9.
Secondly, Anakin didn't "shit all over Dooku", at least not in the films (which is what Gillard's ranking is largely limited to). Then again, if we're relying on alternate media, then Dooku's shown a pretty clear superiority over Obi-Wan, another level 8.