Why isn't Bane's "strongest" accolades taken seriously?

Started by cs_zoltan7 pages
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. She ran away because she knew she was going to lose. That doesn't mean it's a stomp. Depriving a dual-wielding duelist of one blade isn't even a conclusive victory. If she hadn't run, you wouldn't be calling it a stomp, lmfao.

All I see is baseless fantasies here.

Ventress is best when using Jar'Kai, fact. Kenobi disarmed her in 5 seconds, fact. Ventress therfore would've perfomed even worse afterwards.

We are still back to the fact that as much as you and Beni would like to drown yourself in Ventress' c-unt, she was still stomped.

Originally posted by SunRazer
More importantly, the idea of a "stomp" doesn't tie in with how well Ventress performs against Obi-Wan on other occasions.

Like when Kenobi stalemated her even tho he was dying? Yeah, I see your point.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. Ventress did run against Anakin you ****ing dolt.

She still kept fighting, you imbecile.

Originally posted by SunRazer
They did fight for a bit earlier on, but that was mostly Force attacks. There's obviously a difference, but not that much of one. That particular exchange lasted a wonderfully long four seconds...

And? Still longer than against Kenobi. And Ventress was still confident to fight on unlike against Kenobi.

Originally posted by SunRazer
3. Dooku would've killed him then as well if it weren't for Anakin. In fact, Obi-Wan might've fallen off if it wasn't for Anakin.

That's not the point idiot. Dooku could've killed Kenobi, or Kenobi would've fallen to his death because it was over a f-ucking ledge, not because Dooku KO'd him with a kick.

All I see is baseless fantasies here.

Ventress is best when using Jar'Kai, fact. Kenobi disarmed her in 5 seconds, fact. Ventress therfore would've perfomed even worse afterwards.

We are still back to the fact that as much as you and Beni would like to drown yourself in Ventress' c-unt, she was still stomped.

Fact? According to what?

Like when Kenobi stalemated her even tho he was dying? Yeah, I see your point.

Like when she was winning against him, albeit with circumstances, in the Cestus Deception. Or the fact that Obi-Wan just doesn't stomp her at all, never mind in two strikes, whenever they fight in TCW.

She still kept fighting, you imbecile.

Maybe because she could retrieve her lightsabers, unlike against Obi-Wan. She didn't keep fighting him directly after the disarming, obviously.

Anyway, this feeds into my point, you pillock. Being disarmed doesn't stop her from continuing to fight. She ran from Obi-Wan due to a variety of reasons — even Obi-Wan doubted that she would give up so easily in the TCW junior novel. She was certainly confident in facing him again in the future.

That's not the point idiot. Dooku could've killed Kenobi, or Kenobi would've fallen to his death because it was over a f-ucking ledge, not because Dooku KO'd him with a kick.

I thought we were just joking over this. And just because it wasn't an instant KO doesn't mean Dooku wasn't about to stomp him anyway. That's what the point is. Dumbo.

Can't edit my post, but I'm asking for the "fact" that establishes that Ventress is better as a dual-wielder. I'd say it's likely, but I'm not aware of it being stated anywhere.

And for the last part, I meant it doesn't mean that Dooku wasn't stomping him anyway. Not "about to stomp".

Also, have you considered that she might've been surprised by Obi-Wan suddenly fighting so much better?

Like when she was winning against him, albeit with circumstances, in the Cestus Deception. Or the fact that Obi-Wan just doesn't stomp her at all, never mind in two strikes, whenever they fight in TCW.

They never fight again in TCW 1on1, only with Anakin. And together in TCW they are major jobbers, I'm sure you read DMB's blog about that.

Maybe because she could retrieve her lightsabers, unlike against Obi-Wan. She didn't keep fighting him directly after the disarming, obviously.

Anyway, this feeds into my point, you pillock. Being disarmed doesn't stop her from continuing to fight. She ran from Obi-Wan due to a variety of reasons — even Obi-Wan doubted that she would give up so easily in the TCW junior novel.

She still had a lightsaber against Kenobi. I'm aware that she could've fought on, but you and Beni just presume that she would've given any fight to Kenobi with 1 saber. Considering he could hold her off easily while holding back, disarming her when she used her best from I don't see how she could've performed well enough with her weaker form to not call it a stomp.

She was certainly confident in facing him again in the future.

And Kenobi was confident facing Dooku. So by your logic applied here you have to concede our ragdolling debate 🙂

I thought we were just joking over this. And just because it wasn't an instant KO doesn't mean Dooku wasn't about to stomp him anyway. That's what the point is. Dumbo.

Pretty f-ucking irrelevant point. How does that have anything to do with Ventress vs Kenobi?

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm asking for the "fact" that establishes that Ventress is better as a dual-wielder. I'd say it's likely, but I'm not aware of it being stated anywhere.

She uses Jar'kai all the time. If she were better with one saber she wouldn't use two. Occam's razor, man.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Also, have you considered that she might've been surprised by Obi-Wan suddenly fighting so much better?

She was constantly aware that Kenobi was holding back, so no.

There's no ragdolling debate. Dooku can ragdoll kenobi, be it by virtue of speed, power, or a combination of both.

Also plo koon beat a better ventress while injured.

There's also him almost instantly getting the upper hand vs oppress before their fight was interrupted

Originally posted by SunRazer
For Anakin vs Ventress, I'm not referring to the end, but this part: https://youtu.be/gVCXVnHFb9I?t=68
Lol, another excellent example. No suprise Zoltard continues the bang the same drum about the length of the fight while disingenuously asserting that Kenobi and Ventress had only just started duelling, which couldn't be further from the case.

Dear Zoltard, when are you going to acknowledge that in actual fact Ventress had being going at him full throttle for several minutes, by the end of which should have logically been at less than 100%, and was observably off-balanced and frustrated? We are all still awaiting evidence that Kenobi could replicate this performance when actually right off the bat. Despite him failing to do so anywhere else, ever.

You seem to have already shot yourself in the foot regarding Ventress' flight given yes, it makes perfect sense she would have been less confident taking on Kenobi after being relieved her ability to practice Jar'Kai and/or wield a saberstaff. But the point was moot to begin with given she was evidently just cutting her losses since her mission had failed, and by her own omission was eager to alert her master.

And as far as DMB's blogpost on teamwork is concerned, though I certainly agree with him on a lot of points, there alternating fighting style is still effective in the respect that it keeps their opponent on backfoot and indeed off-balanced by minimising breathing space between attacks. The exact kind of environment in which an opening could be exploited in which to disarm one's opponent.

Moreover most of the Christophsis fight occurs off-panel, yet for a significant portion of it Kenobi and Anakin are depicting as assaulting Ventress simultaneously. So the idea that their teamwork was simply so terrible that Kenobi could not perform the mere two moves needed to disarm Asajj is verging on ludicrous. 😬

And that's without getting into the fact that Ventress was able to hold her own and in some cases hold an advantage over Anakin on Kamino, despite Skywalker being in the same bracket as Kenobi in terms of combat ability...

The implication that Ventress would get stomped by a level 7 combatant is frankly hilarious. She's beaten Kit Fisto, beaten Grievous, challenged Obi-Wan and Anakin on numerous occasions, stalemated Savage Opress, etc.

Even factoring in the circumstances, there's no way she'd do that well in any of those instances if she would get two-shotted by a level 7.

That was a pre prime ventress though.

And she beat grevious when amped. On even ground grevious is superior per dooku and looking at their performances vs kenobi.

And kenobi completely outclassed oppress anyway, despite also having to deal with opress's superior in maul

Originally posted by SunRazer
The implication that Ventress would get stomped by a level 7 combatant is frankly hilarious. She's beaten Kit Fisto, beaten Grievous, challenged Obi-Wan and Anakin on numerous occasions, stalemated Savage Opress, etc.

Even factoring in the circumstances, there's no way she'd do that well in any of those instances if she would get two-shotted by a level 7.

And Fisto was the expressly superior swordsman to Kenobi at the time. 👆

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And Fisto was the expressly superior swordsman to Kenobi at the time. 👆

Yup, and plo koon beat a superior version of the ventress fisto lost to. Granted he had a style edge but he was also injured
(And no, pushing someone in a blade lock doesn't mean you stalemated them)

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol, another excellent example. No suprise Zoltard continues the bang the same drum about the length of the fight while disingenuously asserting that Kenobi and Ventress had only just started duelling, which couldn't be further from the case.

Stop lying. I never said they just started fighting, I said Kenobi just started going all out.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Dear Zoltard, when are you going to acknowledge that in actual fact Ventress had being going at him full throttle for several minutes, by the end of which should have logically been at less than 100%, and was observably off-balanced and frustrated? We are all still awaiting evidence that Kenobi could replicate this performance when actually right off the bat. Despite him failing to do so anywhere else, ever.

So let me get this straigh. You are trying to convince me that Ventress is in Kenobi's tier by saying when Kenobi held back and used a passive form, as well as Ventress using a very energy efficient form Kenobi could still tire her out enough in a span of a few minutes to have her in stomp range? Phenomenal job 😂

Besdies it's wrong. She actually fought harder than before:

She was utterly crushed at that moment, but she'd been crushed before many, many times, and the only way she knew to deal with that was to get up and start fighting again, and harder. "I don't give up easily. And I always have a plan."

Also a dying Kenobi stalemating Ventress is replicate enough for me.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You seem to have already shot yourself in the foot regarding Ventress' flight given yes, it makes perfect sense she would have been less confident taking on Kenobi after being relieved her ability to practice Jar'Kai and/or wield a saberstaff. But the point was moot to begin with given she was evidently just cutting her losses since her mission had failed, and by her own omission was eager to alert her master.

Actually I've been wrong about this. Ventress could and did recover her lightsaber yet still didn't dare to take on Kenobi, even tho a few seconds ago she was ready to kill him.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The implication that Ventress would get stomped by a level 7 combatant is frankly hilarious. She's beaten Kit Fisto, beaten Grievous, challenged Obi-Wan and Anakin on numerous occasions, stalemated Savage Opress, etc.

Even factoring in the circumstances, there's no way she'd do that well in any of those instances if she would get two-shotted by a level 7.

Don't really care whether you believe it or not when it happened. And oh yeah, against Grievous she was amped, against Fisto she had a hilariously big stylsitc edge as well as studying him, she didn't stalemate Savage, she was losing. And Savage not long before then was stomped by Maul someone who Kenobi was equal to. Anakin and Kenobi together are major jobbers in TCW, Anakin alone tho gives hell of a fights to Dooku who can in turn stomp Ventress again.

So yeah, you've got nothing.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Stop lying. I never said they just started fighting, I said Kenobi just started going all out.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
If you can't see the difference between disarming someone after a prolonged fight and disarming someone straight away with 2 moves from start to finish then idk what to say to you.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Disarming someone 2 moves after start is a stomp, however you try to spin it.
Not lying about anything darling. The spin your attempting to put on this fight is clear, and not once have you acknowledged Ventress had been fighting Kenobi for a prolonged period.

So let me get this straigh. You are trying to convince me that Ventress is in Kenobi's tier by saying when Kenobi held back and used a passive form, as well as Ventress using a very energy efficient form Kenobi could still tire her out enough in a span of a few minutes to have her in stomp range? Phenomenal job 😂

Besdies it's wrong. She actually fought harder than before:

She was utterly crushed at that moment, but she'd been crushed before many, many times, and the only way she knew to deal with that was to get up and start fighting again, and harder. "I don't give up easily. And I always have a plan."

Oh dear, what a shoddy attempt at strawman. I didn't say anything about Ventress being in Kenobi's tier. Debate that in your own time, this is about whether or not Kenobi stomped Ventress, to which whether they exist in the same tier is not relevant.

And as far as energy efficiency is concerned, that has to be drawn into question considering how much more aggressive Ventress' "ferocious fighting style" is compared to standard Makashi practitioners, and the fact that she was pushing an angry offensive the entire time. And I'm afraid Ventress giving herself a private pep talk talk doesn't prove anything at all in that regard, kek.

In fact according to the novelisation, by the time Kenobi had disarmed her it appeared she cracked several ribs. Who knew?

You also argue that Kenobi was employing a passive form but that only lends itself to my point. This indeed is standard Soresu practice, allow your opponent to wear themselves down (as well as become increasingly frustrated against your offense), before exploiting an opening when they get sloppy.

The fact that Ventress has been disarmed by the likes of Koon and Anakin in the past, and only after relatively short bouts, yet remained able to continue fighting effectively afterwards only indicating that she leaves herself sloppily susceptible to disarmament in general (or that her manner of fighting isn't energy efficient at all), which would only be accentuated by the factors we are discussing.

Also a dying Kenobi stalemating Ventress is replicate enough for me.
Well that's awfully vague, are you referring to their fight on Zule? Because if so that didn't happen. 🙁

On the other hand, no, Ventress' duels on Christophsis and indeed Kamino absolutely refute the idea that Kenobi could repeat this performance.

Actually I've been wrong about this. Ventress could and did recover her lightsaber yet still didn't dare to take on Kenobi, even tho a few seconds ago she was ready to kill him.
In the novel so it would seem, but then in the novel a Vulture droid just happens to pass by and she chooses to jump on it. So it would appear she was just being opportunistic, if that hadn't been the case, would she have continued fighting? And in the end did she flee because she felt she stood no chance, or was altering Dooku simply more urgent? Who knows. Try not to jump to baseless conclusions.

Man this thread didn't even pass the page 2 mark and it went so far off the rails.

A later version of Kenobi outclassing a massively pre prime ventress doesn't put aortic kenobi over plo koon. Especially considering said version of kenobi is<fisto who koon significantly outperformed while injured vs a superior version of ventress.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Man this thread didn't even pass the page 2 mark and it went so far off the rails.

Its kmc, what did you expect

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Its kmc, what did you expect

Point taken.

@beniboybling
Ventress pushing koon in a single bladelock which koon broke free off before their fight ended hardly qualifies as fighting effectively afterwards

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Don't really care whether you believe it or not when it happened. And oh yeah, against Grievous she was amped, against Fisto she had a hilariously big stylsitc edge as well as studying him, she didn't stalemate Savage, she was losing. And Savage not long before then was stomped by Maul someone who Kenobi was equal to. Anakin and Kenobi together are major jobbers in TCW, Anakin alone tho gives hell of a fights to Dooku who can in turn stomp Ventress again.

So yeah, you've got nothing.

So a dark side nexus or form advantage can make you go from being two-shotted to beating them? Hilarious. I don't think you grasp the level of superiority you have over someone else if you can consistently two-shot them (I'm assuming you think Obi-Wan can do it consistently). A form advantage or a nexus isn't even close to being enough for such a radical change in performance. Never mind the fact that Kit was easily above Obi-Wan as of The Cestus Deception.

And no, Filoni said that Ventress was stalemating Savage. They each had the upper hand at different times in terms of what we saw, but the rest of the fight is off-panel. I'd take Filoni's word in this case.

this is the first I've heard of fisto vs ventress being on a nexus