Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
👆This is painfully obvious.
I don't have the DSSB in front of me, but unless there's some sort of mitigating sentence before or after the quote, it clearly means that Ulic was second ONLY to Kun... and does not offer a qualifier that it refers only to the Brotherhood.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's hyperbole. Otherwise Kun > Abeloth.
That's not a valid reason to dismiss it as hyperbole, lmao, or unless you want to start employing double standards, you'll have to throw every "most powerful" quote in the dumpster, including Revan's and Anakin's. Would that be fine with you?
Simply because you have a personal power hierarchy where Abeloth > Kun doesn't invalidate the quote.
What does, though, is Abeloth's own quotes and feats against characters canonically more powerful than Kun, like Luke.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
God forbid we use some common sense and realize Abeloth and Vitiate aren't included in quotes from the 90s when they weren't established until decades later.
Continuity doesn't work that way. Quotes have expiration date, and the introduction of new characters doesn't retcon them. Only other quotes and feats in some cases can do that.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lmfao.The quote isn't saying Droma is second amongst the Dark Lords in history, but rather he's a Dark Lord but second to Kun.
There's a reason that quote's been known for decades and no one ever brought it up. It only states the obvious: Kun > Droma > other Brotherhood Sith.
Want to tell me where it said "second only to his partner Exar Kun, in the Brotherhood of the Sith", or anything else that binds it to the Brotherhood? Unless there's some unknown-to-us context, the most straightforward interpretation is that, due to the quote not being restricted to any particular faction or era, it refers to the Dark Lords of the Sith in general, which would include the ancient Dark Lords like Ragnos, Hord, and Muur.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well, I think the quote could be interpreted honestly as just referring to living Sith.
It could be. But unless one has something to back that up with evidence that doesn't include logical fallacies like appeals to incredulity, said interpretation is baseless, and by proxy, worthless.
Originally posted by Geistalt
"By the time he was finally defeated, Ulic Qel-Droma had become a formidable Dark Lord of the Sith, second only to his partner Exar Kun."
Where is it made painfully obvious it's referring to all time Sith Lords? The way I see it, it's referring to Sith Lords at that point and time.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66If we thought of it that way, there'd be people running around saying "Marka Ragnos > Naga Sadow > Ulic Qel-Droma > Revan Vitiate."
I... don't care. Just accept it's not referring to the other ancient Sith, since Muser has already too, and move on.
At least, it'd be up for interpretation that way.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Post the quote and walk me through where it's referring to all of history specifically.
Almost four thousand years before the coming of Darth Vader, two other Jedi Knights embraced the dark side, eventually challenging and almost decimating the ranks of the Jedi Order they once loyally served. One, Exar Kun, turned to the dark side in a quest for knowledge long forbidden by the Order. The other, Ulic Qel-Droma, sought to destroy the dark side sect of Satal and Aleema Keto frorn the inside, only to be turned to evil himself by dark side poison. By the time he was finally defeated, Ulic Qel-Droma had become a formidable Dark Lord of the Sith, second only to his partner Exar Kun.
-The Dark Side Sourcebook
It's in no way bound to any specific era or faction, like is being suggested here.
Originally posted by Geistalt
To top it off, it's a quote from a role-playing game.It has less basis in lore than TotJ's outdated "the darkest power the galaxy has ever known" quote.
Even though that was proven false 15 years later with Abeloth and the Sith Emperor.
It's perfectly valid long as it doesn't go into game mechanics, which it doesn't, so I don't know what you're so upset about.
No one has offered a valid reason as to why Vitiate should be omitted from the quote, thus far.
Originally posted by Azronger
It's perfectly valid long as it doesn't go into game mechanics, which it doesn't, so I don't know what you're so upset about.No one has offered a valid reason as to why Vitiate should be omitted from the quote, thus far.
Let's dig quotes from outdated sources and impose them on newer content. 🙄
In no way or form, these guys are stronger than Revan (Reborn), forget Vitiate.
Even if you don't take that Kun is more powerful than the Emperor, he's very much capable of approaching Vitiate in the domain of the Force, and it's certainly viable to say his Force Blasts could be a game changer given that novel Vitiate has failed to repel a single bolt of his own Lightning coming back at him. That's some sub-Dooku shit there. 🙂
Factor in Exar's far greater prowess at close-quarters combat and the Emperor's own inadequacies in basic combat principles, and there's no way someone can just slap down Kun and give Vitiate the indisputable win.
I did give Vitiate the benefit of starting distance here because he's a long-ranged fighter, but it's more than plausible to argue that Kun could close the gap. Whether Vitiate can successfully take advantage of the starting distance to bring Kun down before the latter gets to him is up for debate.
I just thought of something that may add credence to the notion that this was for all time.
By the time he was finally defeated, Ulic Qel-Droma had become a formidable Dark Lord of the Sith, second only to his partner Exar Kun.
-The Dark Side Sourcebook
Note the line, "By the time he was finally defeated." at the time Ulic became a sith and fought Kun he was "The only sith practitioner who could challenge him [kun]"
So question....Why would this quote refer to Ulic's prime as a qualifier if he was already indisputably second only to kun as of the moment he became a sith?
Originally posted by SunRazer
Even if you don't take that Kun is more powerful than the Emperor, he's very much capable of approaching Vitiate in the domain of the Force, and it's certainly viable to say his Force Blasts could be a game changer given that novel Vitiate has failed to repel a single bolt of his own Lightning coming back at him. That's some sub-Dooku shit there. 🙂Factor in Exar's far greater prowess at close-quarters combat and the Emperor's own inadequacies in basic combat principles, and there's no way someone can just slap down Kun and give Vitiate the indisputable win.
I did give Vitiate the benefit of starting distance here because he's a long-ranged fighter, but it's more than plausible to argue that Kun could close the gap. Whether Vitiate can successfully take advantage of the starting distance to bring Kun down before the latter gets to him is up for debate.
Originally posted by Azronger
Bring 'em.Appeal to incredulity.
You can't just pick a 15 years old source, take its revelations at face value and use it as the source to critic new content. What is stated in a much older source is valid for the content of that time only. When new super-strong characters are introduced in new content, they create room for debate and re-evaluation of revelations in older content.
Heck, I would argue that Darth Nihilus > Exar Kun