Originally posted by MythLord
Another imaginary term for Nihilus, I assume.There's millions of these fan theories that have Nihilus being some completely deviant entity who's probably closer to Waru than a Sith Lord.
I suppose you didn't make it to the end of my post then?
Here's the summary lol.
Nothing is impossible with the Force. It is an energy that flows through all living things. And like energy, it may be harnessed, channeled, and consumed at times. It may even be a substance that can burn and ignite. ...The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time.
-Kreia
So Force Energy can be used in various forms, and the way Nihilus and the Sith Assassins use it is to consume it and metabolize it into an energy source. Nihilus uses this "Hunger based energy" (vampiric energy) to perform various feats, and really it is integral to who he is as you will see:
The Force, she explains, fuels his hunger, and she will show him how to devour worlds.
-Star Wars KOTOR Campaign Guide
As noted in the Kreia quote, he consumes the Force. In the quote above, Force Energy fuels his hunger. Is the Hunger a Power Source?
His power is great, and it comes from hunger. He is a wound in the Force, more presence than flesh, and in his wake, life dies... sacrificing itself to his hunger.
-KOTOR 2
His power is great, and it comes from Hunger. Life dies and ceases when it is given to his hunger (metabolized).
Nothing matters except his hunger. Before it devours him totally, Nihilus uses its power to displace his persona into his robes and armor.
-Star Wars KOTOR Campaign Guide
So in summary:
1.) His Power as stated, comes from his Hunger.
2.) His Hunger is fueled by the Force.
3.) His Hunger is a tangible power that can be used, as we see him using its power to displace his spirit into his gear.
It is a power, and it is hunger. I call it Hunger Power. Do you have a better term for it?
Darth Nihilus is much like a black hole - a (Wound in the Force) that failed to heal and transformed into an instrument of hunger as a consequence. End-result was this constant urge to consume any living being with connection to the Force to satiate it (i.e.hunger) in order to prevent his own demise. However, Darth Nihilus was only delaying the inevitable end to his existence. His hunger grew to the extent that it began to erode his corporeal existence and identity in spite of the efforts to satiate it, forcing him to transfer his consciousness into his mask and robes in order to preserve it.
So yes, I don't think it is wise to perceive Darth Nihilus as a conventional Force-user because his powers are not his own but borrowed from others via consuming them.
Yeah, "hunger" and "vampiric" are used as synonymous adjectives to describe the nature of his power. He's a dark side Force user, not someone from outside the Force, lol. And despite being a Wound in the Force, his powers stem from the Force all the same, not from something outside of it.
And yes, I do have the clip, as should anyone who's played KotOR II.
Your case is especially weak because there's absolutely no source that even makes mention of this purported "hunger power", despite the groundbreaking nature of the power if that was the case. This is just a fan theory that's been going around the internet for some time; Kreia confirms that the techniques are within the Force and dark-sided in nature. That's why all those Ancient Sith knew the power too. These are all specifically stated to be Sith teachings. And beings without his "hunger" use identical forms of Drain.
And the Force feeding someone isn't a new concept to begin with. In no way does that make his power or his hunger mutually exclusive from the Force.
Yeah, it's clear that Nihilus is a dark sider. Just for good measure:
They did not know that Darth Nihilus, a being of pure hunger and dark side power, was approaching the colony.-- Galactic History 79: The Conclave at Katarr
Amazingly dark and devastating powers are the purview of some of the greatest Sith Lords of the Knights of the Old Republic era. They devastate and consume entire worlds with a thought... Average beings stand no chance of stopping these ultra-powerful monsters of the dark side.-- Power Beyond Belief: Using Ultra-Powerful Sith Lords in Saga Edition
Nihilus wore a mask of possible Hendanyn origin and spoke an unsettling, literally extirpating, tongue. Jedi seers sampling it from a Sith holocron proclaimed its intelligibility required mere patience, for Nihilus’ was the language spoken billions of years hence, at the end of all time. Jedi mystics offered a slightly less fantastical hypothesis: impossibly, Nihilus spoke the raw dialect of the Force itself, untranslated by midichlorians - one needed only die to comprehend it.-- Abel Peña (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide Author)
The legend of Darth Nihilus and his all-consuming hunger came up frequently in Eislo's research. Even if the stories of the mask's power were exaggerated, he knew he had to have it. The ghost-white mask is said to be imbued with dark side energy, and anyone who wears it can wield the energy as if he or she were a Sith apprentice.-- The Unknown Regions Campaign Guide
Darth Nihilus, using only the dark side, holds the ship together from his command post on the bridge.-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide
Darth Nihilus is so corrupted in the Dark Side that his very speech causes pain and death to all who hear it.--Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide
As he died, Darth Nihilus's body seemed to melt away into nothingness, as he somehow managed to encase his spirit in his battle armor. When the armor was transported to Korriban for burial, his spirit traveled with it, and the connection to Korriban's dark side nexus allowed the spirit of Nihilus to maintain contact with the physical world.-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
However, as Nihilus greedily consumes entire planets' life energy, the dark side macerates him even faster.-- Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
And also:
"The hunger that fills this vessel, it is power, but it consumes without end. It is that power we felt on Onderon, that Vaklu felt, it was an echo, too strong to ignore... General Vaklu and I, when it seemed that we would need more to take Onderon, make it strong again, he came."-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
Anyone's who played KotOR II knows about the in-game obsession with echoes in/through the Force. So indeed, Nihilus' hunger is derived from the Froce.
Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
I suppose you didn't make it to the end of my post then?Here's the summary lol.
So Force Energy can be used in various forms, and the way Nihilus and the Sith Assassins use it is to consume it and metabolize it into an energy source. Nihilus uses this "Hunger based energy" (vampiric energy) to perform various feats, and really it is integral to who he is as you will see:
As noted in the Kreia quote, he consumes the Force. In the quote above, Force Energy fuels his hunger. Is the Hunger a Power Source?
His power is great, and it comes from Hunger. Life dies and ceases when it is given to his hunger (metabolized).
So in summary:
1.) His Power as stated, comes from his Hunger.
2.) His Hunger is fueled by the Force.
3.) His Hunger is a tangible power that can be used, as we see him using its power to displace his spirit into his gear.It is a power, and it is hunger. I call it Hunger Power. Do you have a better term for it?
Yeah, and that's all just his Force powers. It's derived from the Force, it's simply related to his hunger.
Nowhere did I say it can be blocked. That doesn't mean it'll kill instantly or something to that effect, though.
I was merely pointing out that "power" and one type of "defense" does not always mean you're going to have the same universal defense for everything. Different effects, different resistances, different levels of lethality.
Well, no, that's not the assertion to begin with. There's two separate assertions; that Sidious can bring to bear enough power to defeat Nihilus and kill him, and that Nihilus' Drain won't serve to end the fight against Sidious for the reasons outlined already.Nobody said anything about using the Force to defeat Nihilus' Drain.
It is debated that by virtue of Sidious being so powerful, he can resist Nihilus' drain as he would a Force Attack. Since that is the only power he will have to defend against it, I assume you track along the same argument. Is that incorrect?
Well, no, because I showed you the quotes in my blog where Sion claims that they wanted to kill her and was surprised that she survived. All you did was continue to repeat yourself in denial of those. I addressed the quote from KotORCG about conspiring to drain her powers.
You argued a clip taken out of context, against multiple sources that show Nihilus drained her Force Energy, nothing more, nothing less.
I'd like you to establish when that cut clip was to take place, and what were the parameters for it that it is dependent upon.
Dark Healing and the like are all solely game mechanic terms and not canon, unless I'm mistaken.
Dark Healing: Heal wounds by drawing life energy from another creature, and adding it to yourself.
Star Wars Core Rulebook pg. 223
Dark Healing Field: (AoE Version, resistance = half damage)
SWKOTORCG pg. 40:
That's blatantly wrong because she says at the end of the game that nobody bar the Exile has truly been severed from the Force (and survived, at any rate). She's only had the Force stripped from her; she hasn't had the actual ties severed.
You're mixing the two really. Its never stated Kreia is the same as Meetra, and while their severing may be different, it is still the same effect. Kreia's ties were severed, destroyed. Meetra's weren't, but her severing was more severe. She has the Malachor V echo, while as Kreia does not.
We see her using the Force prior to encountering the Exile
The connection occurs pre-Peragus when she finds Meetra on the Harbinger.
and TCSWE also states that she sensed the Exile from across the galaxy to discern her location.
In the cut/modified content Kreia reveals she did not want to kill Meetra which is what caused the rebellion, so she had already sensed her:
I did not wish to kill you, so they cast me down. Stripped me of my power. Exiled me.
-Kreia, KOTOR 2
Its not like you go by the TCSWE when it conflicts in game storyline anyways. 🙂
The lightsaber wiggling is her attempting to call it to her hand and failing because she's lost her powers. Also, is there a basis for his Drain having TK effects? That might explain the destruction of the buildings in Unseen, Unheard.
In the Sion vs. Nihilus clip, he rag dolls Nihilus with his drain, and in Unseen, Unheard as we know he used his technique, and that's it. But it caused wind storms, fast planetary clouds, buildings exploding and turned to rubble, etc.
Fair enough. Unless that refers to him finding her on Katarr after the fact and then choosing to keep her alive instead of killing her, but it's not that important either way.
"He spared the Miraluka, and that may have been the last shred of feeling that exists within him."
-Kreia
I said in the script, which mentions her Choking and Crushing the Jedi Masters, which would render them helpless. In the game, they just stand there, but the game depiction is filled with bugs and she still has "prep time" so to speak.
I couldn't find it. Shoot me a reference please.
Are you talking about prep time when she sits down and the player continues on to the masters?
Right, but the Drain Force she uses on the Exile in the DS version is the orange spaghetti attack. Unless you think this is another programming error, but the bugs tend to be those of omission, not altered mechanics.
Ah! No, that's Dark Healing (which she has). Star Wars KOTORCG pg 158/159. Definitely a life siphoning attack.
The KotORCG suggests that the Exile's immunity was specific to Nihilus alone. Kreia also suggests that the Assassins' techniques work on the Exile.
Yeah the immunity due to being a polar opposite. Though I don't remember Kreia suggesting that their drain type would work on her. She said their weakness towards her is apparent due to the fact that when she was disconnected to the Force, they couldn't locate her, but they could then. That's true because they sense Force Energy like blood:
"That is why they are drawn to Jedi, why it is easy for them to find where they gather - because it is like the smell of blood to them. And they can draw upon the Jedi's own strength to kill them. "
-Kotor 2
So while she DOES have something for them to track now, it's debatable if their abilities will work on her. I suspect the polar opposites thing has to do with how Nihilus and Meetra function. He's like a shadow of her and tends to have opposite effects with his power.
I think the problem here is that KotOR II is producing an unprecedented concept which is leading to differing interpretations. The thing is that the hunger is usually referred to separately from the Force, but you're making the mistake of assuming that the hunger is entirely absent of the Force. That's wrong. Just because the attack results in the consumption of Force energy doesn't mean that the attack doesn't originate from the Force itself. Just because the Force fuels it doesn't mean it's independent of the Force either. Sometimes "vampiric" and "hunger" are just used to describe the nature of the attack and don't actually exclude it from the Force altogether. Your analogies about fire and gasoline don't work because you can't use something like fire or gasoline to adequately represent the Force. I have to go now, so I don't have time to explain it properly (what I said might come off as absolute gibberish) but the point is that his hunger and the Force are not mutually exclusive.
I don't think he's purely using one form of power rather than the other. He still has Force Energy (which is why the Hunger cannibalizes him too, even as a Spirit). But his power as stated, comes from his hunger.
She mentions that the technique is "touched by the dark side" and that "it is something of the dark side":And, of course, the attack which has no defense (the one he used on Traya) is of the Force:
Yes, that's true and really there always needs to be a pathway to an ability, especially something that is stated to be "the greatest of the Sith teachings". Again though, as clearly stated, he derives his power from his Hunger, which is fueled by the Force. Technically his power IS empowered by the Force, but only through using the Dark Side to metabolize Force Energy into Hunger Power.
We can easily note, the wound state is a natural state (or unnatural lol). Kreia had to teach him to weaponize it, which is truly a Dark Side technique. To channel energy to perform the technique. Though instead of Force Energy like we see with Dark Healing and such, the energy used is different. Hunger Power.
@MythLord - 👆
His hunger is more or less the condition he suffers from as a result of having his identity subsumed by Force Drain. All of his power still comes from the Force.
@Miko - I'll respond tomorrow, probably.
Although I do want to clear one thing — Dark Healing is just a game mechanic term and never established in canon. As I said, though, the power is defined in the script as a Drain Life:
"Let that pain be a lesson - and a reminder of what you have forgotten. Pain travels both ways along connections in the Force - it casts echoes, always - and one can learn to draw strength from such connections... and take it from others. It is a lesson you know well... and you have taught to others... at the end of the Mandalorian Wars."{GP: She fires a drain force on the player, draining his energy.]}
-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
They did not know that Darth Nihilus, a being of pure hunger and dark side power, was approaching the colony.-- Galactic History 79: The Conclave at Katarr
Yup, a being of pure hunger, and pure dark side power. Which is why his Hunger begins to metabolize him when he doesn't eat. He is made of Dark Side Energy and his Hunger is fueled by Force Energy.
Amazingly dark and devastating powers are the purview of some of the greatest Sith Lords of the Knights of the Old Republic era. They devastate and consume entire worlds with a thought... Average beings stand no chance of stopping these ultra-powerful monsters of the dark side.-- Power Beyond Belief: Using Ultra-Powerful Sith Lords in Saga Edition
Dark Side Aberration, check.
Nihilus wore a mask of possible Hendanyn origin and spoke an unsettling, literally extirpating, tongue. Jedi seers sampling it from a Sith holocron proclaimed its intelligibility required mere patience, for Nihilus’ was the language spoken billions of years hence, at the end of all time. Jedi mystics offered a slightly less fantastical hypothesis: impossibly, Nihilus spoke the raw dialect of the Force itself, untranslated by midichlorians - one needed only die to comprehend it.-- Abel Peña (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide Author)
Nice hypothesis indeed, very dark and grim like the Force Vampire Chris described him to be. Lol. I'm not sure even if that's the fact, how that disqualifies him from still being a being made of pure dark side energy while using a metabolized form of energy fueled by the Force?
The legend of Darth Nihilus and his all-consuming hunger came up frequently in Eislo's research. Even if the stories of the mask's power were exaggerated, he knew he had to have it. The ghost-white mask is said to be imbued with dark side energy, and anyone who wears it can wield the energy as if he or she were a Sith apprentice.-- The Unknown Regions Campaign Guide
He's a Dark Side Aberration that takes residence in the mask.... so why wouldn't it have Dark Side energy imbued in it? Before he stepped into that mask he already had multiple planets under his belt. I imagine that using his Hunger's power allowed him to take much of it with him when his spirit went into it.
Darth Nihilus, using only the dark side, holds the ship together from his command post on the bridge.-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide
Yeah... he's still got Dark Side power, it's not all metabolized (which is why he's not instantly consumed). You'll notice that after he eats there's a period of satiation and really that's the bulk of the Force Power he consumes which fills the hunger and is metabolized, but the hunger returns afterwards even stronger. That doesn't mean he's empty as he has enough in his reserves to fend off the detrimental effects of his hunger for quite a while. It was a great period of time before Katarr and Telos.
Darth Nihilus is so corrupted in the Dark Side that his very speech causes pain and death to all who hear it.--Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide
Same as the above references.
As he died, Darth Nihilus's body seemed to melt away into nothingness, as he somehow managed to encase his spirit in his battle armor. When the armor was transported to Korriban for burial, his spirit traveled with it, and the connection to Korriban's dark side nexus allowed the spirit of Nihilus to maintain contact with the physical world.-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
That actually has zero to do with his state before hand. Chris stated Nihilus is bound to the galaxy by two things, his Mask, and his Hunger. When Meetra defeated Nihilus his spirit and his mask survived, so we can safely conclude only his Hunger was removed. Being in his Mask without his wound state, he can now benefit from Force Nexuses.
However, as Nihilus greedily consumes entire planets' life energy, the dark side macerates him even faster.-- Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
True, it was a double whammy. As we know, the more Dark Side power a person has the faster their body wears out as shown with Sidious and other references. On top of this, the hunger was metabolizing what he was pulling in, into Hunger Power. Per the guide (just after that quote) he's not concerned with the detriment of the Dark Side to his body, he's just concerned about his hunger (which as I said is consuming him at the same time).
"The hunger that fills this vessel, it is power, but it consumes without end. It is that power we felt on Onderon, that Vaklu felt, it was an echo, too strong to ignore... General Vaklu and I, when it seemed that we would need more to take Onderon, make it strong again, he came."-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
As stated in the quote, the hunger that fills the vessel is power. Echoes as stated in the game itself, can be caused by all manner of things from a handshake to the destruction of a planet. I'm not sure why he would not cast echoes seeing as how powerful he is, and how he is consuming raw Force Energy and causing wounds in the Force. I mean I could go on but still.
===============
I think though in all of this you got the impression that I am asserting he doesn't use the Force at all? Which is not what I'm saying.
Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, and that's all just his Force powers. It's derived from the Force, it's simply related to his hunger.
Negative, it is clearly stated by the sources I quoted that it is fueled by the Force.
I mean seriously. His hunger uses the Force for Fuel.
If you mean it is derived from the Force as in, it uses the Force for fuel to power itself, sure.
But if you're going to say his hunger which consumes the Force is going to empower his Force Reserves to be used in an attack rather than be consumed... lol, that's very silly indeed. It goes against Nihilus' hunger state to just throw Force energy away instead of feed him and metabolize it.
The hunger takes the Force, turns it into a form of energy, and uses it to empower his ability. That's essentially it.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, "hunger" and "vampiric" are used as synonymous adjectives to describe the nature of his power. He's a dark side Force user, not someone from outside the Force, lol. And despite being a Wound in the Force, his powers stem from the Force all the same, not from something outside of it.
I didn't say he's outside of the Force, and I didn't say he wasn't a Dark Side Force User.
His power though is clearly stated as deriving from his hunger.
And his hunger derives its power from being fueled by the Force.
And yes, I do have the clip, as should anyone who's played KotOR II.
Since I've gotten the hint that its a combat clip, I don't have it. A movie clip, a scene clip, that may be something different.
In any case Kreia as I stated has Dark Healing. This takes life energy from the target and transfers it to the attacker.
Your case is especially weak because there's absolutely no source that even makes mention of this purported "hunger power", despite the groundbreaking nature of the power if that was the case.
I pointed out multiple quotes that state:
a.) His power comes from his hunger.
b.) His hunger is fueled by the Force.
c.) His hunger is shown to be used as a power source for abilities.
Unless you can disqualify those quotes, you can't sit there and act like they don't exist or say what they say.
This is just a fan theory that's been going around the internet for some time; Kreia confirms that the techniques are within the Force and dark-sided in nature. That's why all those Ancient Sith knew the power too. These are all specifically stated to be Sith teachings. And beings without his "hunger" use identical forms of Drain.
Its not a fan theory if it has quotes to back it, which I showed. Yes the direct force technique he uses (the direct attack form) is indeed a Sith Technique. It can be used by such as Vitiate/Valkorian WITHOUT the hunger aspect, and in doing so it has to be fueled by Force Energy directly as we saw with the Sith Lords and their assistance in powering the ritual.
As a demonstration of the power in metabolizing Force Energy, we see Nihilus drain people on Malachor V with his unique Force consuming passive, learn to direct it as an attack while studying under Traya, and then use that power to raise his ship from Malachor V. AND THEN devour his first planet with no additional assistance from others. The metabolizing of Force Energy into his Hunger yields great amounts of power.
And the Force feeding someone isn't a new concept to begin with. In no way does that make his power or his hunger mutually exclusive from the Force.
At the time, his form of feeding was entirely unique and rare. For a being to devour the Force and Life Energy, and leave behind dead spots in the Force, I myself hadn't seen this before KOTOR 2.
Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
Negative, it is clearly stated by the sources I quoted that it is fueled by the Force.I mean seriously. His hunger uses the Force for Fuel.
If you mean it is derived from the Force as in, it uses the Force for fuel to power itself, sure.
But if you're going to say his hunger which consumes the Force is going to empower his Force Reserves to be used in an attack rather than be consumed... lol, that's very silly indeed. It goes against Nihilus' hunger state to just throw Force energy away instead of feed him and metabolize it.
The hunger takes the Force, turns it into a form of energy, and uses it to empower his ability. That's essentially it.
So the Force is just fuel for this energy/power, is what you're saying? You do realize that's every goddamn ability in Star Wars, right? From telekinesis, to telepathy, to pretty much 99% of powers that exist in the SW mythos are all derived and fueled by the Force.
Nihilus also uses it as fuel, hence it's a Force power, not some random deviant power that doesn't even exist.
Again, I’ll look at a more thorough response in the coming days, but I'm not sure how you can say that his power comes from his hunger when it says he "uses only the dark side [of the Force]" and you act like this hunger is a separate thing.
Two more things:
As stated in the quote, the hunger that fills the vessel is power. Echoes as stated in the game itself, can be caused by all manner of things from a handshake to the destruction of a planet. I'm not sure why he would not cast echoes seeing as how powerful he is, and how he is consuming raw Force Energy and causing wounds in the Force. I mean I could go on but still.
Indeed. That just confirms that his hunger is synonymous with the Force, not something independent. It's why the said hunger is an echo in the Force.
Since I've gotten the hint that its a combat clip, I don't have it. A movie clip, a scene clip, that may be something different.In any case Kreia as I stated has Dark Healing. This takes life energy from the target and transfers it to the attacker.
Again, Dark Healing is a game mechanic that doesn't count.
I'm talking about this: https://youtu.be/zCUTu5SjbgM?t=427
That's a Drain Life power, even though the script claims it's Drain Force as I showed above. Although in fairness, TSLRCM does change it to her stabbing herself with a lightsaber and the Drain Force becomes invisible.
That said, Drain Force is represented through an in-game animation — purple tendrils instead of orange ones.
Originally posted by SunRazer
@MythLord - 👆His hunger is more or less the condition he suffers from as a result of having his identity subsumed by Force Drain. All of his power still comes from the Force.
@Miko - I'll respond tomorrow, probably.
As I said, though, the power is defined in the script as a Drain Life:
"Let that pain be a lesson - and a reminder of what you have forgotten. Pain travels both ways along connections in the Force - it casts echoes, always - and one can learn to draw strength from such connections... and take it from others. It is a lesson you know well... and you have taught to others... at the end of the Mandalorian Wars."{GP: She fires a drain force on the player, draining his energy.]}
-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
Uh, that says "Drain Force" and it "Drains his Energy".
Which is exactly what "Drain Force" does both in game, and according to official guides: "The Dark Side Source Book pg. 17,18"
It takes Force Energy from another, and transfers it to yourself.
Now I know where you got that quote:
{GP: She fires a drain force on the player, draining his energy.]}{Accusing, angry, this is the final moment}I have taught you to hear the Force again, shown you the contrast, and yet still you do not understand.
Yet I can't find a clip for it. I know its supposed to be Dark Side (which isn't the canonical path anyways) but all the videos on the conversation don't have them.
Although I do want to clear one thing — Dark Healing is just a game mechanic term and never established in canon.
I gave a direct source for it. Now I understand you're stating it's not a "Canon" source, which means not like TCW and the movies?
But in Legends, its a Legends canon established power even outside of the KOTOR 2 campaign guide.