Originally posted by xJLxKingIn that same logic, Over Monitor > Writers
No, because the Over-Monitor is the blank piece of paper. Without the writer that piece of paper remains idle.
The writer however can tell his stories verbally. Or make Youtube videos. Or do whatever in order to share his vision with others.
Originally posted by MrMindThat's fine. I am well aware of that. But it doesn't help me argue that Namor can solo the entire Legion lineup in history at the same time so I don't give a shit about it. I don't like a company because their God that appears once every decade can beat up another God who appears more. He's not a ****ing character to have as a favorite
the entire arguments regarding supreme beings that has been argued over 10 years on the internet is essentially fans flexing their e-dicks trying to prove "My God is better than yours, thus my company is better than yours." nothing more
but company bias aside, here lies the question, why there has to only be one true omnipotent god? why can't there be two or three? that is actually a very deep philosophical question regarding monotheism and polytheism that I have no energy getting into.regarding this thread, the concept of having writer avatar on panel>omnipotent is stupid, marvel isn't the only one who introduce the idea of writer manifest character reign supreme over their stories, dc done it with morrison multiple times, other companies fictions have done it.
All I'm worried about is the merits of these claims. Look at your list for example. We're to believe that a very flawed being in Over Mind is vastly more powerful than the God of the company who admitted he was shaped by something else. And the Presence is equal to TOAA because they're both Gods. Prep Man then comes strolling in and goes "The not omnipotent or omniscient Overvoid is way more powerful than TOAA because The Presence is a germ."
But TOAA lacks such limitations, so why should he be beholden to the same set of rules as the Presence is? By all means if there was something infinitely bigger out there, he should be God of that too. Thanos was talking about creating realities from one nose touch and then infinite realities being created that would all fall under TOAA's jurisdiction. Whatever spreads is still within his power.
It's just that TOAA is everything we picture an all powerful God to be. And I'm not saying there can't be 2 or 3, but there simply isn't in Marvel's case. And the ones in DC are still supposedly under the Over Void. It's just too much to swallow.
That whole writer shit is a concept I don't even want to entertain though. Omnipotence is the word they're looking for.
"He's a writer"
"So... omnipotent...?"
"No he's like a real life writer that can write the comics and is above God."
"So I could get a plane ticket right now and knock out the all powerful diety of Marvel and then get arrested by human cops?"
Morrison writing himself as a God is a real douche move though. Great writer but some things are too much.
Originally posted by Enzeru
No, because the Over-Monitor is the blank piece of paper. Without the writer that piece of paper remains idle.
The writer however can tell his stories verbally. Or make Youtube videos. Or do whatever in order to share his vision with others.
Originally posted by Enzeru
No, because the Over-Monitor is the blank piece of paper. Without the writer that piece of paper remains idle.
The writer however can tell his stories verbally. Or make Youtube videos. Or do whatever in order to share his vision with others.
You're reaching!!! You're not a writer, if you're telling a story verbally.
DC views supreme beings different. Over Monitor represents everything.
In limbo, we had a book that contained every "possible" story. The over-monitor is supreme. It doesn't need to be all knowing. It doesn't just represent a writer, it's the tool to give you a story/comic; it is supreeme. There can be multiple writers. Tomorrow a new writer can come and retcon TOAA.
It's all a reach. You just have to accept that DC looks at supreme beings differently. They don't seem to write writers into the story all that much. Outside of WF, I don't think they ever have.
Originally posted by MrMindthe blank paper is youtube or whatever medium you want to tell the story on
without the medium to tell the stories, writer is useless
Well, we're talking about DC comics here. And DC comics were written and drawn on a piece of paper. And since the Over-Monitor / Overvoid / whatever is the blank piece of paper, it's nothing more than a tool of the writer.
Being a tool is what kinda dismisses the idea of the Overvoid being The One Above Alls equal. The Overvoid doesn't have a say in what's being written and drawn on it. It can only roll with it, which again, puts it on a lower level, when it comes to the metatextual hierarchy.
Originally posted by xJLxKingYou're reaching!!! You're not a writer, if you're telling a story verbally.
DC views supreme beings different. Over Monitor represents everything.
In limbo, we had a book that contained every "possible" story. The over-monitor is supreme. It doesn't need to be all knowing. It doesn't just represent a writer, it's the tool to give you a story/comic; it is supreeme. There can be multiple writers. Tomorrow a new writer can come and retcon TOAA.It's all a reach. You just have to accept that DC looks at supreme beings differently. They don't seem to write writers into the story all that much. Outside of WF, I don't think they ever have.
Well, that's just like, your opinion, man.
Thank you for sharing your opinion with me. I disagree with it, because in your mind the Overvoid seems to have a say in what's being written on it and what isn't. It doesn't. It's the canvas for the writer, who does what he or she wants - which again puts it below the writer. And which again puts The One Above All above the top dog in the DC universe. Like it or not.
Originally posted by Enzeru
Well, we're talking about DC comics here. And DC comics were written and drawn on a piece of paper. And since the Over-Monitor / Overvoid / whatever is the blank piece of paper, it's nothing more than a tool of the writer.
Being a tool is what kinda dismisses the idea of the Overvoid being The One Above Alls equal. The Overvoid doesn't have a say in what's being written and drawn on it. It can only roll with it, which again, puts it on a lower level, when it comes to the metatextual hierarchy.
Originally posted by Enzeru
Well, that's just like, your opinion, man.
Thank you for sharing your opinion with me. I disagree with it, because in your mind the Overvoid seems to have a say in what's being written on it and what isn't. It doesn't. It's the canvas for the writer, who does what he or she wants - which again puts it below the writer. And which again puts The One Above All above the top dog in the DC universe. Like it or not.
It's not an opinion. The Over-monitor hold all stories.
You're trying to pretend there is some limitation when you wont accept that if you apply same real life limitation to TOAA, that character is also limited. A writer has no power without the paper. That same logic applies
That's why I said you're reaching.
Yes, you can claim that OM doesn't have power over the writer. But you can inverse it and say the same thing regarding a writer. The TOAA is at the end of the day, a tool, just like a "canvas".
Originally posted by Enzeru
I've already debunked that idea of yours. You've simply ignored it and restated it again. Wow.The Writer doesn't even come close to The One Above All. The Writer started off as the avatar of Grant Morrison. Not of "the writer" in general, but that one writer named Grant Morrison, who was working on the Animal Man stories.
Then the Writer became an actual character, since he had written himself into continuity. From that point on he was controlled by others. Who are these others? The same, who have created the Presence. Who has been controlling the Writer and the Presence? Outside forces, but these outside forces simply do not have a form in the DC universe - while the Marvel universe has a form for these outside forces: The One Above All. The One Above All can't be affected by writers, because he is the writers.
The Writer you're talking about... As I said, he is being controlled by others:
https://i.imgur.com/fpqll9I.jpgThe Writer can control reality, if it doesn't flow too fast. So there are clear and massive limitations to his potential omnipotence:
https://i.imgur.com/8ZoaQzS.jpgAnd then the Writer ends up getting killed, because he can't write reality fast enough:
https://i.imgur.com/CLCH5mG.jpgIt's actually legit hilarious that you're putting The One Above All and the Writer on the same level. Just stop.
Yeah, and Morrison ended up getting killed in the comics. His avatar doesn't even exist anymore, because it was turned into a character.
Other self-inserted writers in fiction didn't control a universe as big as the Marvel omniverse.
The One Above All is actually the most powerful fictional being in all of existence. It's the writer, who commands the entire fictional universe and that universe is so big, that only the DC universe rivals it in size. Nothing else does. Maybe if you combined all of the existing anime and manga into one omniverse and made the God of that universe the avatar of the writer. Then you would have a new number 1. But for now it's Marvel, because DC doesn't have something like The One Above All. I've already shown multiple times that the Writer from DC is simply not the same metatextual being that The One Above All is. And the Presence is also only a mere character in the DC universe. The most powerful one, but one that has been created by others. The One Above All is the others.
you are like a child "my favorite company has the biggest universe! We have the most powerful god!"
lol, other companies have multiverse too. whoverse, lovecraft etc,as long as they have infinite universes they are the same in size.
you think TOAA is the most powerful being in all of existence. that's your opinion
other people have different ideas, you view being the writer avatar>all, that's how marvel works
but that's not how dc or other companies work.marvel has concept dc don't have, dc has concept marvel don't have. like over-moniter, or empty hand etc, they are all metatextual concepts.
I see dc more powerful because dc has multiple omnipotent beings, marvel only has one. that's my opinion
you want to prove your opinion is right and mine is wrong? you can't
when you discuss omnipotent battles it simply came down to opinion, it's not straight facts like flash is faster than quicksilver, hulk is stronger than bane.
but seriously you think Presence=Fulcrum, c'mon man
Originally posted by One Big Mob
That's fine. I am well aware of that. But it doesn't help me argue that Namor can solo the entire Legion lineup in history at the same time so I don't give a shit about it. I don't like a company because their God that appears once every decade can beat up another God who appears more. He's not a ****ing character to have as a favoriteAll I'm worried about is the merits of these claims. Look at your list for example. We're to believe that a very flawed being in Over Mind is vastly more powerful than the God of the company who admitted he was shaped by something else. And the Presence is equal to TOAA because they're both Gods. Prep Man then comes strolling in and goes "The not omnipotent or omniscient Overvoid is way more powerful than TOAA because The Presence is a germ."
But TOAA lacks such limitations, so why should he be beholden to the same set of rules as the Presence is? By all means if there was something infinitely bigger out there, he should be God of that too. Thanos was talking about creating realities from one nose touch and then infinite realities being created that would all fall under TOAA's jurisdiction. Whatever spreads is still within his power.It's just that TOAA is everything we picture an all powerful God to be. And I'm not saying there can't be 2 or 3, but there simply isn't in Marvel's case. And the ones in DC are still supposedly under the Over Void. It's just too much to swallow.
That whole writer shit is a concept I don't even want to entertain though. Omnipotence is the word they're looking for.
"He's a writer"
"So... omnipotent...?"
"No he's like a real life writer that can write the comics and is above God."
"So I could get a plane ticket right now and knock out the all powerful diety of Marvel and then get arrested by human cops?"Morrison writing himself as a God is a real douche move though. Great writer but some things are too much.
I get what you are saying
if TOAA=Presence, but Over-Moniter>Presence, Over-Moniter>Toaa, no good
if TOAA=Over-Moniter, but Over-Moniter is not the supreme being, no good
if TOAA is writer avatar> in universe omnipotent like Presece, but the Writer from animal man is writer avatar too, but he is not supreme being and TOAA is, but Presence is Supreme being, but he is not writer's avatar.
See what I'm saying? it goes round and round
simply because two companies operate differently
Also Presence is limitless as far as dc multiverse/omniverse concern, over-moniter is a being outside of dc, sorta like pr beyonder outside of marvel
Originally posted by xJLxKingYou're trying to pretend there is some limitation when you wont accept that if you apply same real life limitation to TOAA, that character is also limited.
Yes, you can claim that OM doesn't have power over the writer. But you can inverse it and say the same thing regarding a writer.
https://i.imgur.com/JKtrQM7.jpg
The Overvoid was in shock, when it discovered the existence on itself. That should tell us how much above the Overvoid the outside forces (the writers) are. So the Overvoid was not only not in control over existence being created on it, it actually wasn't even aware of it for the longest time.
And then the Overvoids creation enters that existence, that was created by the outside forces and gets infected by it. Which again proves that the Overvoid is below the outside forces on the hierarchy. The writers do whatever they want with the Overvoid.
Originally posted by MrMindyou want to prove your opinion is right and mine is wrong? you can't
I'm not trying to prove anything on the internet. I've learned a long time ago that trying to change other peoples opinions is the equivalent of talking to a wall. I didn't enter the discussion with you in hopes I would change your mind. I knew that you had your opinion set in mind and that you were going to roll with it until the end of the day.
In human psychology that is called "the backfire effect". When a person gets confronted with an opposing opinion, their belief in their own opinion doesn't waver - instead it gets even stronger. So the more I talk against you, the more you are convinced that everything you're saying is correct... and that I'm a child, who is biased towards the Marvel universe.
All I try to do is to provide as much objective information as possible and back it up with examples, scans, hopefully insightful posts and all that good stuff. What my opposition does, is none of my concern. All I'm trying to do is to make a compelling argument for all the people, who are interested in the topic, read all the arguments and then make up their own mind. Who they side with is totally up to them of course.
Originally posted by MrMindIf TOAA actually had limits it wouldn't be an issue. But the problem is is that we're assuming these beings with clears flaws are on par or above a being with none.
I get what you are saying
if TOAA=Presence, but Over-Moniter>Presence, Over-Moniter>Toaa, no good
if TOAA=Over-Moniter, but Over-Moniter is not the supreme being, no good
if TOAA is writer avatar> in universe omnipotent like Presece, but the Writer from animal man is writer avatar too, but he is not supreme being and TOAA is, but Presence is Supreme being, but he is not writer's avatar.
See what I'm saying? it goes round and round
simply because two companies operate differently
Also Presence is limitless as far as dc multiverse/omniverse concern, over-moniter is a being outside of dc, sorta like pr beyonder outside of marvel
And yes, they operate differently, but still centered around "omni". TOAA has omnipotence, omniscience, and can sense everything in omni reality. Presence is powerful because he created everything in a "limited" range and is omnipotent. We later find out there are limitations and there is a being that makes his reality microbial in comparison. That being does not know things as well. They operate differently, but still perfectly understandable to us.
TOAA does not have a range he can't effect. The entire conversation with Thanos was preordained. Thanos was literally talking about realities created from a nose touch being under his jurisdiction. Now imagine every nose touch from every being in every universe happening every second. All of that is what TOAA has control over. There is no blank being infinitely beyond him because he oversees everything from a place beyond it. No walls, nothing. Everything is expanding at a rapid pace and nothing was shown beyond him.
TOAA is a true omnipotent. DC operates differently because it doesn't have that. The rules aren't different and therefore it shouldn't apply, it just lacks a truly limitless being. Which, there's nothing wrong with that. They are different, but TOAA embodies the true definition of these words. If the Presence were truly all powerful, then a being like Over Void would simply be a place where he keeps his universes with complete control over everything in it.
And Over Monitor is beyond the normal DC, but still part of it. PR Beyonder was retconned and also effected by a ton of beings. Just because he was beyond The Cosmics, does not mean he was beyond Marvel while he was in a Marvel comic getting killed by a Marvel Molecule Man. Just because there were realms beyond The Cosmic Hierarchy, doesn't mean it was beyond TOAA.
Look, you just put whatever Top Dog in DC on par with TOAA and call it a day. You can't have a shitload of them being there because we know all of them have some fairly big flaws. TOAA doesn't.
This doesn't effect either company in the slightest contrary to popular belief since it changes nothing for the germs below them. It's just that in terms of that one use of omnipotent in that one being, Marvel actually did it right. If they went ahead and created a being above God with clear flaws, then they ****ed up too. But they haven't... yet.
Originally posted by MrMind
here lies the question, why there has to only be one true omnipotent god? why can't there be two or three? that is actually a very deep philosophical question regarding monotheism and polytheism that I have no energy getting into.
On top of everything what One Big Mob has stated, there are also the moments in DC comics, where Presences omnipotence is in question.
In LUCIFER VOL 2 the big thing at the beginning was the search for the killer of the Presence:
https://i.imgur.com/7Fwv5sT.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dJpAhCL.jpg
There was also talk about how Gabriel was able to hide from Presences omniscience:
https://i.imgur.com/YCPByMN.jpg
Imagine The One Above All in the same position. Actually, I can't imagine it. The One Above All is above that. So to say that The One Above All = The Presence... is really quite questionable.
Originally posted by Enzeru
On top of everything what One Big Mob has stated, there are also the moments in DC comics, where Presences omnipotence is in question.In LUCIFER VOL 2 the big thing at the beginning was the search for the killer of the Presence:
https://i.imgur.com/7Fwv5sT.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dJpAhCL.jpgThere was also talk about how Gabriel was able to hide from Presences omniscience:
https://i.imgur.com/YCPByMN.jpgImagine The One Above All in the same position. Actually, I can't imagine it. The One Above All is above that. So to say that The One Above All = The Presence... is really quite questionable.
I still need to read Volume 2... one day. I mean, you aren't ****ing selling it in the least, but just because of how much I loved the real Lucifer. Then again, maybe that's a reason to avoid it.
Either way, yuck.
Originally posted by xJLxKingNot quite. The Overmonitor doesn't represent everything, it is the canvas everything is imposed on, by the actual supreme being in DC. The Writer.
DC views supreme beings different. Over Monitor represents everything.
Enzeru is also wrong in denying the Writer's credentials as a metatextual supreme being. The Grant Morrison avatar was just that, an avatar controlled by the real writer to write a story. There is essentially no difference between The One Above All and The Writer. The Writer is heavily intertwined with and inseparable from DC's cosmology as of Final Crisis. To deny it is IMHO silly.
The Presence is not TOAA's equal though. That much I'd say is true.
Originally posted by One Big Mob
If TOAA actually had limits it wouldn't be an issue. But the problem is is that we're assuming these beings with clears flaws are on par or above a being with none.And yes, they operate differently, but still centered around "omni". TOAA has omnipotence, omniscience, and can sense everything in omni reality. Presence is powerful because he created everything in a "limited" range and is omnipotent. We later find out there are limitations and there is a being that makes his reality microbial in comparison. That being does not know things as well. They operate differently, but still perfectly understandable to us.
TOAA does not have a range he can't effect. The entire conversation with Thanos was preordained. Thanos was literally talking about realities created from a nose touch being under his jurisdiction. Now imagine every nose touch from every being in every universe happening every second. All of that is what TOAA has control over. There is no blank being infinitely beyond him because he oversees everything from a place beyond it. No walls, nothing. Everything is expanding at a rapid pace and nothing was shown beyond him.
TOAA is a true omnipotent. DC operates differently because it doesn't have that. The rules aren't different and therefore it shouldn't apply, it just lacks a truly limitless being. Which, there's nothing wrong with that. They are different, but TOAA embodies the true definition of these words. If the Presence were truly all powerful, then a being like Over Void would simply be a place where he keeps his universes with complete control over everything in it.
And Over Monitor is beyond the normal DC, but still part of it. PR Beyonder was retconned and also effected by a ton of beings. Just because he was beyond The Cosmics, does not mean he was beyond Marvel while he was in a Marvel comic getting killed by a Marvel Molecule Man. Just because there were realms beyond The Cosmic Hierarchy, doesn't mean it was beyond TOAA.
Look, you just put whatever Top Dog in DC on par with TOAA and call it a day. You can't have a shitload of them being there because we know all of them have some fairly big flaws. TOAA doesn't.
This doesn't effect either company in the slightest contrary to popular belief since it changes nothing for the germs below them. It's just that in terms of that one use of omnipotent in that one being, Marvel actually did it right. If they went ahead and created a being above God with clear flaws, then they ****ed up too. But they haven't... yet.
jesus christ wall of text again, Im in a hurry so I'll respond as much as I can
your argument is that TOAA is truly omnipotent and Presence is not, Presence is less omnipotent than TOAA
well it's false, Over monitor is the metaphor for blank page, dc as it's entirety is story. Over Monitor is not the God who created the DC omniverse.
the God of DC Universe is Presence (yahweh), is by all definition omnipotent, unless you prove it otherwise
he said he was shaped by outside being (the fukin writer), doesn't make him less omnipotent, Presence simply acknowledged that he is a fictional character created by real human beings. just like TOAA is created by marvel writers. I really hope Enzeru realize TOAA is still drawn by actual human being, that TOAA isn't real lol.
Presence is the true Supreme Being to DC, Just like TOAA is to marvel if that answer your question
I agree having more than one truly omnipotent being in one company is stupid as hell, but that's how comic works. well dc has more than one being claiming omnipotent on panel, just like marvel has PR Beyonder on panel stated to be omnipotent. whether if they are truly omnipotent is debatable. what I acknowledge is Presence=TOAA represent both companies true omnipotent. let's be honest here, neither need feats to prove that, (at least I hope I don't have to post both of their appearance in scans here), regardless either one of them appear only couple issues throughout decades of history anyway.
DC cosmic is not stupid by any means, there are two sides of it
Vertigo hierarchy
Presence
Lucifer, Michael, Elaine, GEB
The Endless, Night, Time
this represent the Magic/religion side of DC, Explain DC in a
monotheistic christianity way
Morrison Monitor hierarchy
Over-Monitor
Mandrakk/Though Robot/Empty Hand
Gentry/Ultra Comics/Captain Adam
this represent the science side of DC, with metafiction metaphor
They both expand different concept, which is exactly what make things interesting, you like cosmic universe order to be simple (marvel), I like it to be complex (dc).
Originally posted by EnzeruI'm not trying to prove anything on the internet. I've learned a long time ago that trying to change other peoples opinions is the equivalent of talking to a wall. I didn't enter the discussion with you in hopes I would change your mind. I knew that you had your opinion set in mind and that you were going to roll with it until the end of the day.
In human psychology that is called "the backfire effect". When a person gets confronted with an opposing opinion, their belief in their own opinion doesn't waver - instead it gets even stronger. So the more I talk against you, the more you are convinced that everything you're saying is correct... and that I'm a child, who is biased towards the Marvel universe.
All I try to do is to provide as much objective information as possible and back it up with examples, scans, hopefully insightful posts and all that good stuff. What my opposition does, is none of my concern. All I'm trying to do is to make a compelling argument for all the people, who are interested in the topic, read all the arguments and then make up their own mind. Who they side with is totally up to them of course.
Bro so far you claimed Presence=Fulcrum=Dreaming Celestials, TOAA created Presence, even thought they are not even in the same fukin company, and TOAA is the most powerful being across ALL FICTION bar none, and you claim yourself not biased? let's be honest here just once.
