Originally posted by zopzop
Because it's a logical fallacy. By definition there can only be ONE supreme being (assuming it exists).
yes I get that, there could only be one omnipotent (though it's actually difficult trying to prove it either way).
I'm just trying to entertain the idea what if there are more than one, a brainstorm. since back in the day people worship polytheism.
Originally posted by NemeBroEnzeru is also wrong in denying the Writer's credentials as a metatextual supreme being. The Grant Morrison avatar was just that, an avatar controlled by the real writer to write a story. There is essentially no difference between The One Above All and The Writer. The Writer is heavily intertwined with and inseparable from DC's cosmology as of Final Crisis. To deny it is IMHO silly.
I'm not denying it. I'm just not living in the past. The Writer had evolved. Actually devolved, because he went from being the avatar of the writer for Animal Man comics to a mere reality warping character, who ended up getting killed, because he couldn't warp reality fast enough. We always go with the most recent version of a character and the most recent version of the Writer is buried six feet below the ground.
Originally posted by MrMindBro so far you claimed Presence=Fulcrum=Dreaming Celestials, TOAA created Presence, even thought they are not even in the same fukin company, and TOAA is the most powerful being across ALL FICTION bar none, and you claim yourself not biased? let's be honest here just once.
The Presence has shown more limits than Fulcrum. I'm being generous to the Presence here, when I put them on the same level.
Not even gonna bother with the TOAA > Presence part. It should be fairly obvious what I had in mind. You're just being deliberately ignorant.
The One Above All is the omnipotentest of the omnipotents in the arguably largest fictional universe period. How am I wrong?
I'm wrong in your opinion, because in your opinion the Doctor Who universe is comparable to the Marvel universe in scale. And that idea alone is so ridiculous, that it completely kills my interest in a further debate.
Originally posted by MrMind
jesus christ wall of text again, Im in a hurry so I'll respond as much as I can
your argument is that TOAA is truly omnipotent and Presence is not, Presence is less omnipotent than TOAA
well it's false, Over monitor is the metaphor for blank page, dc as it's entirety is story. Over Monitor is not the God who created the DC omniverse.
the God of DC Universe is Presence (yahweh), is by all definition omnipotent, unless you prove it otherwise
he said he was shaped by outside being (the fukin writer), doesn't make him less omnipotent, Presence simply acknowledged that he is a fictional character created by real human beings. just like TOAA is created by marvel writers. I really hope Enzeru realize TOAA is still drawn by actual human being, that TOAA isn't real lol.
Presence is the true Supreme Being to DC, Just like TOAA is to marvel if that answer your question
I agree having more than one truly omnipotent being in one company is stupid as hell, but that's how comic works. well dc has more than one being claiming omnipotent on panel, just like marvel has PR Beyonder on panel stated to be omnipotent. whether if they are truly omnipotent is debatable. what I acknowledge is Presence=TOAA represent both companies true omnipotent. let's be honest here, neither need feats to prove that, (at least I hope I don't have to post both of their appearance in scans here), regardless either one of them appear only couple issues throughout decades of history anyway.
DC cosmic is not stupid by any means, there are two sides of it
Vertigo hierarchy
Presence
Lucifer, Michael, Elaine, GEB
The Endless, Night, Time
this represent the Magic/religion side of DC, Explain DC in a
monotheistic christianity wayMorrison Monitor hierarchy
Over-Monitor
Mandrakk/Though Robot/Empty Hand
Gentry/Ultra Comics/Captain Adam
this represent the science side of DC, with metafiction metaphorThey both expand different concept, which is exactly what make things interesting, you like cosmic universe order to be simple (marvel), I like it to be complex (dc).
He's not though. He has no power over that massive blank page and the apparently even bigger dark blank page. Everything he's done amounts to a germ to something else within DC. He was created by something else. How is that true omnipotence on the level of TOAA? His omnipotence has never been questioned like that. He's never lost his manhood like that. In talks of impossible things like infinite universes created by a nose touch, he's like "Yup". Everything that can possibly happen is under his power. He's never been anything but Supreme. He's never been a creation in a comic book, he's just been the very best.
They are both creations in comics, I'm not denying that. I would never say they are anything but comic creations. The difference is that nothing created TOAA, while Presence was created by something else, things have gone beyond his scope both in Vertigo and DC (Anti Monitor fight), and the being that makes him and everything he's ever done look like a germ.
It doesn't have to be a feat off when things exist that by definition limit Presence's scope and power it's really not hard to see what Supreme Being got a cap put on their Omnipotence.
I never said I liked anything a certain way. But I like true omnipotence to be portrayed as true omnipotence. Not concepts with gaping flaws just because it's interesting. It's not a different way to portray similar concepts, it's just not true omnipotence is what it is.
Let's say you get hit by a bus today and you go to Heaven, and you meet God and you're like "Hey G-Dog, what's the meaning of life my good man?"
And God's like, "Fukked if I know buddy, we're all just ink on some paper you know. All I do is make shit. Some giant paper guy made me by accident and I started writing stories and fanfics. If you want answers, you gotta go into the Beyond Canvas. Wouldn't recommend it though. J-Eezy went in there once and came out smoking heroin and talking about bottling flaws and shit."
You'd probably question how all powerful he was. You wouldn't be like "Boy howdy is that totally legit and different way to be omnipotent." You'd be like "Fuk"
I'm not saying DC isn't interesting or more interesting at the top. I mean, Morrison has almost sole control afterall. I'm saying the concept of supreme being has been shredded by the people we can liken that title to. Things meant to up the ante have only diluted the meaning of pre existing words and titles. Again, Snyder took Grant's concept and flipped the page (literally) and it was absolutely retarded and amounted to nothing. But what it did do, is furthur downplay just how all powerful the Presence is. It's diluting the term, when true omnipotence should also extend to this giant blank slate instead of being bottled and a part of something bigger.
If you're the strongest guy because you can lift all the weight in your gym, you'd feel pretty inadequate when Carver9 picks up your gym at throws it at the DC head offices.
Originally posted by EnzeruIf you were going by the most recent version of the character, you'd be going with the version that spawned all of DC and its assorted properties on the canvas that is the Overmonitor, which is as far as I remember the latest example of the Writer being shown or alluded to in DC.
I'm not denying it. I'm just not living in the past. The Writer had evolved. Actually devolved, because he went from being the avatar of the writer for Animal Man comics to a mere reality warping character, who ended up getting killed, because he couldn't warp reality fast enough. We always go with the most recent version of a character and the most recent version of the Writer is buried six feet below the ground.
Originally posted by NemeBroScan me up baby
If you were going by the most recent version of the character, you'd be going with the version that spawned all of DC and its assorted properties on the canvas that is the Overmonitor, which is as far as I remember the latest example of the Writer being shown or alluded to in DC.
Originally posted by One Big MobI'm not going to front on you and claim I have a scan that directly states the Writer is the God of DC the same way one would state The One Above All (Marvel's representation of the writer) is that of Marvel. As far as I can recall, no such scan really exists, and so if people don't want to think of the Writer as of the same status I do I perfectly understand. 👆 Any indication that such a scan did exist was poor wording on my part.
Scan me up baby
My claims are merely logical extrapolations based on a few things, like the Overmonitor being the blank canvas stained by the ink of DC, written by the writer.
Something that slipped my mind is that Enzeru's downplaying of the DC Writer is a little odd when, per Grant Morrison's (the character, not the actual writer) words, now that he has written himself in the story, he is now under the control of something else. I don't see this as a refutation of the assertion that the Writer is the equivalent of TOAA, I simply see the on-panel Grant Morrison as being a character created and used by the actual Writer as their representation, whilst still being wholly under the actual Writer's sway. The acknowledgement that he is controlled by them distances himself from them, and at the very least indicates the existence of a metatextual entity beyond the confines of the comic itself.
TOAA who was sorta manipulated by Thanos and was distinctly a comic book character whose only weapon is love?
http://i.imgur.com/2LApDYE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0WA3sKD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/BqW4IwJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XhPVbFa.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/gPw89wR.jpg
Writers, eh?
Originally posted by One Big Mob
He's not though. He has no power over that massive blank page and the apparently even bigger dark blank page. Everything he's done amounts to a germ to something else within DC. He was created by something else. How is that true omnipotence on the level of TOAA? His omnipotence has never been questioned like that. He's never lost his manhood like that. In talks of impossible things like infinite universes created by a nose touch, he's like "Yup". Everything that can possibly happen is under his power. He's never been anything but Supreme. He's never been a creation in a comic book, he's just been the very best.
I said it multiple times Over Monitor the blank page. Grant Morrison was using metaphor, that dc as entirety is a fukin story. How...does...overmonitor being outside dc omniverse make ****in Presence any less omnipotent. That was exactly how PR Beyonder was introduced in secret wars 2, you don't see any dc fans jump up and down claiming that makes TOAA less omnipotent. (yes I get that it was retconed)Omnipotent is omnipotent, there are no degree of it. so far the only evidence marvel side have to "discredit" Presence was in the end of Lucifer 1, the scan posted by Enzeru on the first page. which was out of context not getting the metaphor to say at least. He was referring to the writer shaping him. The whole conversation and idea at the end of Lucifer was regarding free will.
regarding Enzeru posting pic of lucifer v2 to discredit Presence was lulzy as hell, Presence did not actually died, if he actually read the story to the end he would know what was going on.
They are both creations in comics, I'm not denying that. I would never say they are anything but comic creations. The difference is that nothing created TOAA, while Presence was created by something else
things have gone beyond his scope both in Vertigo and DC (Anti Monitor fight)
and the being that makes him and everything he's ever done look like a germ.
It doesn't have to be a feat off when things exist that by definition limit Presence's scope and power it's really not hard to see what Supreme Being got a cap put on their Omnipotence.
I never said I liked anything a certain way. But I like true omnipotence to be portrayed as true omnipotence. Not concepts with gaping flaws just because it's interesting. It's not a different way to portray similar concepts, it's just not true omnipotence is what it is.
I'm not saying DC isn't interesting or more interesting at the top. I mean, Morrison has almost sole control afterall. I'm saying the concept of supreme being has been shredded by the people we can liken that title to. Things meant to up the ante have only diluted the meaning of pre existing words and titles. Again, Snyder took Grant's concept and flipped the page (literally) and it was absolutely retarded and amounted to nothing. But what it did do, is furthur downplay just how all powerful the Presence is. It's diluting the term, when true omnipotence should also extend to this giant blank slate instead of being bottled and a part of something bigger.
what are you talking about? if you think the dark multiverse is outside presence control, you are simply mistaken. in what universe did dark knights metal downplayed Presence powerfulness, prey tell.
If you're the strongest guy because you can lift all the weight in your gym, you'd feel pretty inadequate when Carver9 picks up your gym at throws it at the DC head offices.
Let's say you get hit by a bus today and you go to Heaven, and you meet God and you're like "Hey G-Dog, what's the meaning of life my good man?"
And God's like, "Fukked if I know buddy, we're all just ink on some paper you know. All I do is make shit. Some giant paper guy made me by accident and I started writing stories and fanfics. If you want answers, you gotta go into the Beyond Canvas. Wouldn't recommend it though. J-Eezy went in there once and came out smoking heroin and talking about bottling flaws and shit."You'd probably question how all powerful he was. You wouldn't be like "Boy howdy is that totally legit and different way to be omnipotent." You'd be like "Fuk"
how does this imagination scenerio has even come up lol. I can't even come up with this shit if I smoke dmt and salvia at the same time wtf. I will give credit when credit is due you are one funny dude one big rob.
Originally posted by One Big Mob
I don't really care about this stupid "my omnipotent is better than yours" sort of fanwank, but why would they need it?
since there's no evidence marvel creation is bigger than dc's
overmonitor makes marvel look like germ. see what I did here?
Originally posted by abhilegend
TOAA who was sorta manipulated by Thanos and was distinctly a comic book character whose only weapon is love?http://i.imgur.com/2LApDYE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0WA3sKD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/BqW4IwJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XhPVbFa.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/gPw89wR.jpgWriters, eh?
👆 👆 👆 😆 😆 😆
nice find abhi, next time marvel fans trying to low ball dc with their my god is bigger than yours bullshit
I will literally show them this, "my only power is love" wtf
btw, TOAA most recent appearance in Thanos miniseries, turned Adam Warlock into the Living Tribunal. He isn't the author, since his stated purpose to to watch things unfold and see what happens. TOAA being writer argument can be ended by now.
Originally posted by Enzeru
On top of everything what One Big Mob has stated, there are also the moments in DC comics, where Presences omnipotence is in question.In LUCIFER VOL 2 the big thing at the beginning was the search for the killer of the Presence:
https://i.imgur.com/7Fwv5sT.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dJpAhCL.jpgThere was also talk about how Gabriel was able to hide from Presences omniscience:
https://i.imgur.com/YCPByMN.jpg
maybe you should at least read the whole story arc and find out what actually went on. you would know if you read it since this shit was all explained
Originally posted by abhilegendTOAA who was sorta manipulated by Thanos and was distinctly a comic book character whose only weapon is love?
That is exactly the type of metatextual stuff we're talking about here :-7 The entire scene, including TOAAs description of himself were pretty much directed towards the readers.
The conversation between Thanos / Adam Warlock and The One Above All didn't need to exist, because the outcome was already predetermined. We're being told that during the conversation itself.
The difference is that Marvel doesn't treat The One Above All as a character. They treat their own characters as characters, who they talk to. Otherwise we wouldn't have gotten the conversation between The One Above All and Peter Parker.
Originally posted by MrMindregarding Enzeru posting pic of lucifer v2 to discredit Presence was lulzy as hell, Presence did not actually died, if he actually read the story to the end he would know what was going on.
Can you point out, where I said that the Presence died? All I stated was that the death of the Presence was a big plot point in LUCIFER VOL 2. No matter if the Presence died, or got severely wounded or just took an Odin-sleep-nap, he was wounded - which goes against any truly omnipotent being. The Presence couldn't see Gabriel, which goes against any truly omniscience being.
Originally posted by MrMindnice find abhi
"Look at me. I haven't read any comics with The One Above All in them. I just saw those scans and even though they're going over my head, I'll still pretend it's all the proof I need to beat those pesky, pesky Marvel fans!"
Originally posted by MrMindI will literally show them this, "my only power is love" wtf [/B]
Yeah, go ahead and show it and see how that will play out for you.
Originally posted by MrMindbtw, TOAA most recent appearance in Thanos miniseries, turned Adam Warlock into the Living Tribunal. He isn't the author, since his stated purpose to to watch things unfold and see what happens. TOAA being writer argument can be ended by now.
No, that's the purpose of the Watcher :-7
The comic clearly states that all the conversations and decisions are already predestined. Literally the first few sentences explain that every decision in existence happens by The One Above Alls decree. That goes above free will.
The One Above All has never been affected by outside forces. He is the outside force. The Presence however has been hurt, questioned, outplayed and rendered an insignificant speck in the actuality of creation.
Originally posted by MrMindmaybe you should at least read the whole story arc and find out what actually went on. you would know if you read it since this shit was all explained
I know what happened.
But why don't you go ahead and tell me what happened in your own words. You've been trying to enforced your legless, yet clearly biased opinion since the beginning of this discussion. I'm curious to see how you'll try to twist the narrative in order to make an argument for the Presence.
TOAA is not the only writer avatar who can erase characters, dc has multiple characters who has done the same thing, yellow alien for example
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/80518/6515298-a55705d3d539b600cf2441e5e050352ac75cb710.jpg
I will respond to the rest wall of text later when I have time but just noticed this, this shit is gold
enzeru
You've been trying to enforced your legless, yet clearly biased opinion since the beginning of this discussion.
