Scathan vs. Great Evil Beast

Originally posted by Enzeru
That is exactly the type of metatextual stuff we're talking about here :-7 The entire scene, including TOAAs description of himself were pretty much directed towards the readers.
The conversation between Thanos / Adam Warlock and The One Above All didn't need to exist, because the outcome was already predetermined. We're being told that during the conversation itself.

The difference is that Marvel doesn't treat The One Above All as a character. They treat their own characters as characters, who they talk to. Otherwise we wouldn't have gotten the conversation between The One Above All and Peter Parker.

That's not metatextual in the least. Being predetermined does not mean it's metatextual.

Thanos literally browbeat TOAA in recreating 616 universe. Also TOAA wasn't able to correct the flaw in the universe where there were resurrection hence gave a portion of the power to Thanos who was himself unable to correct the flaw.

TOAA can't even cure the flaw of his own creation.

Originally posted by MrMind

I think DC Supreme Being=Marvel Supreme Being and I'm the ****ing biased one?

That's the whole problem with your argument. You think that just because The One Above All and the Presence are the most powerful beings in their respective universes, it automatically means that they're equals in terms of power. That however is simply not the case for multiple reasons.

One reason being is that the Presence has shown clear limitations. He has been hurt, he couldn't see things and he got overshadowed by another entitity in the Overvoid, who is a metatextual entity - but is still ranked below the metatextual entity in the writer... or in our case The One Above All, the one true God in the arguably biggest fictional universe to ever exist. The One Above All has never shown any signs of weakness.

And you still roll with the wish of The One Above All and the Presence being equals. So yes, you are the biased one.

Originally posted by MrMind

You think TOAA is the most powerful fictional character bar none and you are calling me bias?

As I said, The One Above All is the embodiment of the writer in the one of the - if not the - biggest fictional universes. That concept, that entity, that whatever has complete omnipotence and the complete control over the entire Marvel universe. How is he not the most powerful fictional character in existence?
That has nothing to do with bias. It's plain logic.

Originally posted by MrMind

you think dreaming celestial=presence is you being generous and you calling me bias?

Truth be told is that Fulcrum and Tiamut have shown less limitations than the Presence has. Fulcrum and Tiamut had become equals in terms of power and Fulcrum had been portrayed as pretty much the top dog in the Marvel universe besides The One Above All. Fulcrum is more of a character than The One Above All is, so with The One Above All being out of the discussion, only Fulcrum remains. And with Fulcrum showing less limitations, I do think it's safe to say that he is at least on par with the Presence.

Originally posted by MrMind

for god sake you think TOAA created the supreme being of DC.

I am in utter shock, that you're still riding on that. It should be clear as day that I clearly didn't mean THE The One Above All, but rather the idea of the outside force that The One Above All is meant to represent.
The Presence stated that he has been created by outside forces = the writers. The Presence was created by what The One Above All is meant to be. So yes, The One Above All created the Presence.

Originally posted by MrMind

You apply your marvel set of rules to a company that operate on different hierarchy and rules. that is the defination of bias, hello!!!

This is basically the same story as with Doctor Manhattan in Alan Moores Watchmen comics. Comic readers have been putting Doctor Manhattan against all kinds of powerful characters, where Doctor Manhattan himself had pretty much only been a tank buster at that point.

I don't care about DCs hierarchy and rules. It's not my fault, that Marvel has established a concept that ranks above something in DC. Marvel has still the upper hand in that regard.
At the same time I'm more than happy to admit, that DC has established hierarchies and rules when it comes to speed - speed with which Marvel can't keep up with. I would never argue that the Sentry is as fast as Superman, because he simply isn't. That's not how Marvel comics use speed. Does that now make me biased towards DC? Come on.

Originally posted by MrMind

gimme a fukin break. congradulations your mental illness has surpassed sentry.

Ah, the good old "I'm losing an argument, so I'll fall back to edgy curse words and even personal insults". Great argument. You've clearly dismissed everything I've stated by calling me out on my mental illness.

I have no comeback for that, so I guess I'll just have to concede and grant you the victory: The Presence is The One Above Alls equal in terms of power, influence, importance and all the other relevant stuff.

Prove this laughable claim that the MCU is in any way "bigger" than the DCU.

Oh, and there's goes that Enzeru>>>RW. Sentry fans are certifiable. That explains why they identify with the character.

Originally posted by Enzeru
That is unnecessary.

The One Above All created the Presence.

https://i.imgur.com/zyBhbJ1.jpg

I never said that the Presence isn't omnipotent. In his respective universe he is omnipotent. I just said, that The One Above All has the massive advantage of being a metatextual entity. The One Above All is the avatar of the writer. The Presence is a character, created by the writer.

Your Grant Morrison example doesn't hold up at all. Grant Morrison was kinda mainly there for the Animal Man story, where The One Above All reigns supreme over the entire Marvel omniverse. Grant Morrison also kinda died in the comics, if I'm not all too wrong. The One Above All on the other hand is still alive and kicking.

TOAA =/= actual writer

TOAA= a fictional writer of a fictional universe

A fictional writer = omnipotent being (such as the Presence).

enzeru it's tiresome when you type this kind of shit, like how can anybody take you seriously

Originally posted by Enzeru
The One Above All is actually the most powerful fictional being in all of existence. It's the writer, who commands the entire fictional universe and that universe is so big, that only the DC universe rivals it in size. Nothing else does. Maybe if you combined all of the existing anime and manga into one omniverse and made the God of that universe the avatar of the writer. Then you would have a new number 1. But for now it's Marvel, because DC doesn't have something like The One Above All. I've already shown multiple times that the Writer from DC is simply not the same metatextual being that The One Above All is. And the Presence is also only a mere character in the DC universe. The most powerful one, but one that has been created by others. The One Above All is the others.

Originally posted by Enzeru
The One Above All created the Presence.
Because The One Above All is the outside force that birthed the Presence into existence in the first place

There are other fictional universes, where the writer puts themself in their own story. If JK Rowling put herself in the Harry Potter universe as The Writer / The God, would she be as powerful as The One Above All? Of course not, because the Harry Potter universe consists out of ONE universe, where Marvel consists out of an omniverse, which contains countless multiverses, which contain countless universes. And The One Above All is the writer and supreme ruler of that omniverse.

these are all your own words, look at what you are saying
you claim me dont know shit about TOAA, I have all his appeared issues in computer right now, where did it state TOAA is the actual writer? Because that's literally what you said so many times your quote "The One Above All is actually the most powerful fictional being in all of existence. It's the writer". show me on panel proof where did TOAA said "I'm the writer". you fuking can't

at best he was implied to be the fictional representation of the writer. he is a fictional character, how stupid of you to compare him to an actual real life person JK Rowling, and claim TOAA to be more powerful is just well...beyond me.

I'm currently the only who posted scans of both TOAA as Jack Kirby and The Writer as Grant Morrison and compared their showing, and you are calling me baseless?

So far you have shown squat regarding TOAA the most powerful fictional being of existence. just the daily lip service by marvel fanboys ive seen on this board for the past 7 years. no scans no issue number no context, if you want to make such big claim you better have some proof to back it up other than your personal opinion

you make fun of me bringing up whoverse or lovecraft, or dc or other company, like fukin marvel is the biggest in size? gimme a fukin break, there are other companies that have infinite universes, by definition infinite cannot>infinite

One reason being is that the Presence has shown clear limitations. He has been hurt, he couldn't see things and he got overshadowed by another entitity in the Overvoid, who is a metatextual entity

lies lies lies and more lies

As I said, The One Above All is the embodiment of the writer in the one of the - if not the - biggest fictional universes
It's not my fault, that Marvel has established a concept that ranks above something in DC. Marvel has still the upper hand in that regard.

I literally showed you scans of yellow aliens and the writer on panel being the representation of the writer. so again, how is TOAA special in this regard?how is marvel the only one established this concept? if anything dc established the concept above marvel, dc has writer avatar too, that aint even the supreme being, back in the 90s!

Truth be told is that Fulcrum and Tiamut have shown less limitations than the Presence has. Fulcrum and Tiamut had become equals in terms of power and Fulcrum had been portrayed as pretty much the top dog in the Marvel universe besides The One Above All. Fulcrum is more of a character than The One Above All is, so with The One Above All being out of the discussion, only Fulcrum remains. And with Fulcrum showing less limitations, I do think it's safe to say that he is at least on par with the Presence.

this shit is the same level of retardation as RW claiming sentry is omniversal.

TOAA has limits too.

Thanos had gained full power of TOAA (later retconned) but he was unable to fix a flaw in universe.

While Juggernaut and Melter hospitalized TOAA.

This is fun.

😂

In fact when I consider it now, save for FF 511 and Eternals series, writer avatars in marvel have very shitty showings. Magneto has casually overpowered Stan Lee, Xavier entered his mind without any issue, random aliens who silver surfer defeated mindraped Stan Lee etc.

Originally posted by MrMind
I said it multiple times Over Monitor the blank page. Grant Morrison was using metaphor, that dc as entirety is a fukin story. How...does...overmonitor being outside dc omniverse make ****in Presence any less omnipotent. That was exactly how PR Beyonder was introduced in secret wars 2, you don't see any dc fans jump up and down claiming that makes TOAA less omnipotent. (yes I get that it was retconed)Omnipotent is omnipotent, there are no degree of it. so far the only evidence marvel side have to "discredit" Presence was in the end of Lucifer 1, the scan posted by Enzeru on the first page. which was out of context not getting the metaphor to say at least. He was referring to the writer shaping him. The whole conversation and idea at the end of Lucifer was regarding free will.
regarding Enzeru posting pic of lucifer v2 to discredit Presence was lulzy as hell, Presence did not actually died, if he actually read the story to the end he would know what was going on.

If a character is omnipotent for example. All powerful. Yet She-Hulk comes around and rips the page he's on and kills him, was he really omnipotent?

Like you said though, Beyonder was retconned. And that also has no bearing on TOAA directly. Him also being a comic character in a Marvel comic doesn't bode well for him not being created by TOAA either. Just a separate creation from the rest of it. Beyonder didn't look upon the place TOAA was residing in and call everything a corn in his poop. He just said everything was shit. And then it was retconned. And creations of TOAA even before the retcon were able to stand against him. That same thing didn't happen to Overmind. Overmind didn't look upon Superman and go "Mien Gott, his power be infinite homey!" like Beyonder did to Hulk, nor did Dr Light steal all his power and then rape him up the butt.

Originally posted by MrMind
TOAA is creation of comic but not created by something else? did you just contradict yourself lol.
but it's nice to know at least you wont indulge me on the TOAA being the writer's avatar crap.

I know the whole 4th wall "Writer" shit. But that doesn't fly. Of course Mike Carey was referring to the writers, but as an in comic standpoint, it was something else. What we have to look at is him and his entire creation growing inside another being. Something we can liken to a creator or shaper of him.

TOAA lacks that. He just is. He's like Carver, he's always been there, and he always will be. He has no creator in forums. In real life, sure his mom birthed him 3 months early and his dad went to buy cigarettes, but on the forum he has no beginning and no end. The concept behind his creation does not actually enter his canon.

Originally posted by MrMind
no it haven't. please post scans.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111223216/4777048-spectre3.png

I'd look for scope stuff but Enzoomafoo posted that scan where Gabriel was outside his scope, so I don't want to look for more.

The more important thing is, is that it adds up. I don't think it would matter much but that Overmind retcon kind of throws a wrench in the thing.

Originally posted by MrMind
so? unless you can prove marvel omniverse> dc omniverse in size, Overmonitor makes everything TOAA ever done look like a germ too.

It's in the thing that you laughed at and called me rob. If you were all powerful with the ability to create infinite universes, and then you found a place that was even bigger than "infinite", why wouldn't you be able to create infinite universes there too? Why would you not have direct control over that zone as well?

And we know TOAA had control over an ever expanding omniverse where universes can be created simply by one being touching their nose.

Originally posted by MrMind
so far your stance Presence is nigh-omnipotent only because the existence of over-monitor is shaky as hell. did the overmonitor directly say presence is a germ compare to him? no he only refer to the SIZE of dcu, nothing more nothing less.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111128252/4730581-5312259924-XiMoJ.jpg

If the Presence is actually greater than the Overmind, then that's great. You have no idea how much I would like that. But that doesn't seem to be the case is all.

You seem to think I don't want DC to have some uber God. But call me old fashioned and Christian, but I like the idea of one actual omnipotent ruling over all. Just something to be greater than everything else. Hell, I'll take the Dr Manhattan retcon if that ****ing thing ever gets resolved. I'd prefer the Christian God of course, but ****, a little order is nice.

Originally posted by MrMind
you think Presence has gaping flaw is well...just your opinion, not backed by on panel evidence.

Originally posted by MrMind
what are you talking about? if you think the dark multiverse is outside presence control, you are simply mistaken. in what universe did dark knights metal downplayed Presence powerfulness, prey tell.

Though with what DC is doing now, it would help to have Presence appear and talk about what he has power over.. Things being beyond the multiverse and all that sort of stuff. Meh.

Originally posted by MrMind
at one point you are making fun of prep for using this thread as oppurtunity to take jabs on marvel, yet you are doing the same to dc, hypocrite much?

Actually read what I wrote there. I said Carver lifted a gym and threw it at DC head offices. Bro. Come on.

Originally posted by MrMind
how does this imagination scenerio has even come up lol. I can't even come up with this shit if I smoke dmt and salvia at the same time wtf. I will give credit when credit is due you are one funny dude one big rob.

Great concepts. Powerful concepts. Different concepts. But not omnipotent concepts, yet these are the top beings in DC. Morrison is basically asserting that human concepts and the way we understand comics supersedes comic all powerful-ness. But true omnipotence should be above that no matter how great the concept is.

Originally posted by MrMind
Dude you told me you don't care about the my god is better than yours, but for the last 3 pages you subtlely trying to prove TOAA is superior, let's not kid ourselves I get what you trying to do here.

There's nothing subtle about what I'm doing though. You think I'm trying to prove Marvel > DC. I get that. It sounds bad saying one God is better than the other.
The issue is that where does that lead me to? They have one actual omnipotent God... then what? How does this help me in actual normal debates on the forum? Am I going to say the second in command in LT beats up Presence because TOAA is great? Am I going to go "Yeah, his head got blown off, but they were also omnipotent too so it's cool!" Is that going to help me prove Wolverine can kill Cosmic Armor Superman?

I'm not leading to anything. I just like my omnipotents actually omnipotent. I like words to have meaning. You have absolutely no idea how much I hate that "levels of omnipotent" Celestial scan being presented as a real argument. I don't like when comic writers fuk with the actual meaning of things or concepts just so they can continue using these words and concepts.

If you must know though, here's my opinion on the matter. I believe classic LT was equal to Lucifer Morningstar./Micheal. Scale that off of the beings equal or greater than Lucifer in DC and see exactly how well that turns out for Marvel. It's not about the company, current Marvel can burn for all I care as long as Thanos, Namor, Iron Fist, Cosmic Ghost Rider, and Surfer (with Galactus cameos) are saved. It's about the word, not the company. I don't need to defend random ass characters just to make the company look better. TOAA is just one of the few things Marvel hasn't tried to ruin yet.

Unlike other people, I don't get ass raped by my company and have a vehement need to defend them. I'm not a truck fan (my tranny blew for the fifth time, but look how good the brand is!), a sports fan, a console fan. I'm a fan of individual aspects within those things. I ****ing hate Sony for example, but I still like the games. Marvel is trash, but I still like the characters. I don't need to prove one company is better than the other because Marvel is fukking awful right now, and has been for a while. I just like how they're doing their God correct, or letting writers write his omnipotence correctly.

I understand this is not the normal way, and why you would be leery of what I'm saying. You switch my words to come from Carver's all powerful avatar and you know exactly where he's going. The problem is, I personally don't give a shit about what company is more powerful.

I'll do another example on Omnipotent that I like, or remember liking. Man of Miracles. I might be off on this one since I haven't read Spawn for a long time, but MoM is portrayed perfectly omnipotent. The issue is, while in comics, he/she is omnipotent, Imageverse is comparably small compared to DC/Marvel, which brings into question of how "omnipotent" it is on the forum. Relating this back to Presence, I believe DC can still easily save this, it's just that it hasn't yet. There are things inside the company that haven't fallen under the thrall of The Presence, which are easily fixed. But until that gets fixed, his actual omnipotence is called into question. Even with the "shaped by outside forces", he could have still been all powerful, but once Overvoid came into existence and you start adding things up, it just... why?

Originally posted by MrMind
since there's no evidence marvel creation is bigger than dc's
overmonitor makes marvel look like germ. see what I did here?

There's more I could add, and probably should add, but I gave up.

Originally posted by MrMind
👆 👆 👆 😆 😆 😆

nice find abhi, next time marvel fans trying to low ball dc with their my god is bigger than yours bullshit

I will literally show them this, "my only power is love" wtf

That really doesn't diminish anything though. The Thanos scene was already set in stone, as pretty much said. And his only weapon being love might sound stupid (it was Ewing afterall in that mess comic), but it's not exactly wrong.

TOAA's most recent appearance was telling Deadpool how full of love he should be and love shit like that. Even in the only malice appearance of TOAA's appearances, he sent a bunch of angels to smite the Hand out of love Ghost Rider (though the existence of Ghost Rider kind of goes against that... meh). He's a loving God. That's not a limit especially when it's prefaced by him being all powerful.

He's not throwing Care Bear Stares at people. He just loves his creations, but sometimes his love for others takes precedence over that and people have to pay. Way of the world.

Originally posted by h1a8

TOAA =/= actual writer
TOAA= a fictional writer of a fictional universe
A fictional writer = omnipotent being (such as the Presence).

No.

Originally posted by MrMind

enzeru it's tiresome when you type this kind of shit, like how can anybody take you seriously

Irony much?

Originally posted by MrMind

at best he was implied to be the fictional representation of the writer.

Congratulations. After 4 pages you've now finally understood what I've been trying to tell you this entire time. That fictional representation is pretty much that outside force I keep talking about. That metatextual entity.

(I'll straight up ignore some of your "points", where you question things I say. That's clearly on you and I highly doubt that other people will have the same difficulty understanding my points.)

Originally posted by MrMind

I'm currently the only who posted scans of both TOAA as Jack Kirby and The Writer as Grant Morrison and compared their showing, and you are calling me baseless?

No, you're currently the only one, who is ignoring context and character development.
Grant Morrison as the Writer had become a character later on. He wasn't a fictional representation anymore. They changed that concept entirely and then ended up killing him off. I've posted scans to that. The One Above All remained the fictional representation.

Originally posted by MrMind

you make fun of me bringing up whoverse or lovecraft, or dc or other company, like fukin marvel is the biggest in size? gimme a fukin break, there are other companies that have infinite universes, by definition infinite cannot>infinite

Why don't you go ahead and show me these infinite universes from the Doctor Who universe or the HP Lovecraft universe? Oh, there isn't anything to show? It's just the statement that there are infinite universes? Well, that's too bad.
This is about what has been shown and established. Every single What If story in Marvel comics or whatever has been an alternate reality in Marvel comics. And over decades of stories and alternate realities the entire Marvel universe grew in scale. What about all those Doctor Who stories? Which omniverse has more documented universes? Marvel or Doctor Who? You know the answer to that. Hence Marvel universe > Doctor Who universe.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Thanos had gained full power of TOAA (later retconned) but he was unable to fix a flaw in universe.

I see you're back at it with your usual big time ignoring of the context.

1. Why don't you tell me about how canon THE END actually was? :-) It wasn't. Editors have stated, that it wasn't canon and handbooks have stated that the story took place in another reality.

2. Even if we go with the hints of parts of the story being canon, or at least something similar happening in the actual Marvel universe, Thanos only had a fraction of The One Above Alls powers, just like that's already stated.

Originally posted by abhilegend

In fact when I consider it now, save for FF 511 and Eternals series, writer avatars in marvel have very shitty showings. Magneto has casually overpowered Stan Lee, Xavier entered his mind without any issue, random aliens who silver surfer defeated mindraped Stan Lee etc.

And Paul Jenkins fainted, when the Sentry teleported away.

Don't confuse with the Marvel staff with the actual The One Above All.
Comic book writers, editors and artists live in the regular 616 universe. The Marvel omniverse even has an alternate Earth, which is supposed to be our very own Earth.

The One Above All is still the one, who does as he pleases, while the Presence does as the writer pleases it.

👆 So what you're saying is that you don't care about Thor anymore.

Originally posted by krisblaze
👆 So what you're saying is that you don't care about Thor anymore.

Actually that might not be correct. Without Jane, he writes - or more accurately, wrote - Thor a lot better, so we'll see if he goes back to his old ways or not. Probably not. Ribic might have also been covering for Aaron's shit writing as well.

His Odin is straight garbage though. Again, maybe just Jane, but probably not.

But right now, no, don't care for Thor in comics.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I like Thor. I don't like current Thor. Aaron needs to stop.

Actually that might not be correct. Without Jane, he writes - or more accurately, wrote - Thor a lot better, so we'll see if he goes back to his old ways or not. Probably not. Ribic might have also been covering for Aaron's shit writing as well.

His Odin is straight garbage though. Again, maybe just Jane, but probably not.

But right now, no, don't care for Thor in comics.

I'm starting to think this is the reason why I enjoyed godbomb so much.

I haven't been that big a fan of Thor since Ragnarok tbh, though JMS had some good stuff and he's had three solid minis in glory, astonishing thor and deviants saga.

Originally posted by krisblaze
I'm starting to think this is the reason why I enjoyed godbomb so much.

I haven't been that big a fan of Thor since Ragnarok tbh, though JMS had some good stuff and he's had three solid minis in glory, astonishing thor and deviants saga.

Fraction was fun. It was in no ways good but it was a lot more digestible than what Aaron has been churning out. Gillen was good though. I wouldn't mind him or JMS having Aaron level control over Thor, but...

Gillen's making nazi comics now, good bless him.

I laughed in real life reading that

Originally posted by Enzeru

I see you're back at it with your usual big time ignoring of the context.

1. Why don't you tell me about how canon THE END actually was? :-) It wasn't. Editors have stated, that it wasn't canon and handbooks have stated that the story took place in another reality.

Do they now?

Marvel The End is definitely canon.

From Thanos' 2003 mini:

From Thanos' 2006 OHOTMU bio:

From Eternity's 2006 OHOTMU bio:

From Living Tribunal's 2006 OHOTMU bio:

From Inifnity's 2006 OHOTMU bio:

From Master Order & Lord Chaos' 2007 OHOTMU bio:

From the 2010 Thanos Sourcebook:

And even if they happen in another reality, its again TOAA's power unable to fix the flaw of a single universe.

Or are you stating there is another TOAA in an alternate universe?

2. Even if we go with the hints of parts of the story being canon, or at least something similar happening in the actual Marvel universe, Thanos only had a fraction of The One Above Alls powers, just like that's already stated.

It was enough that Thanos thought himself supreme and was above LT. Yet, it was barely enough to fix a single universe.

And Paul Jenkins fainted, when the Sentry teleported away.

Don't confuse with the Marvel staff with the actual The One Above All.
Comic book writers, editors and artists live in the regular 616 universe. The Marvel omniverse even has an alternate Earth, which is supposed to be our very own Earth.

So does DC universe. But these were writer avatars, not an alternate reality marvel writers on a different earth.

The One Above All is still the one, who does as he pleases, while the Presence does as the writer pleases it.

Except he isn't. He is just another character in comic as explicitly shown.

Hmmm i learned today that TOAA is more powerful than J.K.Rowling, facinating XD...