Vader believes his power is the greatest it's been during ROTJ, however he's conflicted because of Luke. I doubt this would affect him in a duel with anyone besides Luke though.
I believe Filoni said Rebels was Vader's prime because he wasn't conflicted and didn't know about Luke. Not necessarily referring to his power.
That's my interpretation.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
e. For Canon or Legends?
Both.
I’ve never taken Filoni’s (or was it Pablo) statement as absolute as some. He seems to be referring more to this era, rather than this specific time.
As for RotJ, he may be more powerful then. But due to the conflict he feels, we’ve never actually seen him operate at his best.
Originally posted by PetrusFaulty abc logic. He dropped his guard and his comments prior to make this so obvious it's slapping the viewer in the face.
Please provide the evidence that Kenobi let him win, because otherwise, you're facing the almost certain possibility that Rebels Kenobi is roughly on par with ANH Vader, which would mean he's definitely above any iteration of Maul.Of course you're going to say it doesn't mean that, but you'd still have to provide proof for your claim.
Quicker mobility, higher skill with a saber. What he does with a light saber and the fluidity of his movements Vader cannot do. Maul's strengths exploit Vader's weaknesses.
Originally posted by samappoMore powerful force wise which doesn't mean he's at his absolute best.
ROTJ Vader was in his prime. He describes himself as being the most powerful he has ever been.1. We don't know the outcome of his fight with Tano, but during the fight itself she's constantly getting her guard overpowered by Vader and is constantly falling back. Not out of strategy, but because Vader forced her on that defensive. Just watch her facial expressions. She's trying hard not to get completely overpowered by Vader's strength.
He never injures her or disarms her. Despite teaching her and being so above her he wasn't able to significant injure or even disarm her. Vader fanboys make up excuses. He didn't best her to suggest man this guy is on another level. He forced Kenobi back in rots and look how that turned out.
The context matters. He only lost due to allowing it. Facts matter.
2. Kenobi was going to lose anyway. It's described in ANH script as well as the comic. [/B]
3. Luke is a Skywalker without the limitation of losing all of his limbs. His potential is double Sidious' (not sure if this is confirmed in canon, but regardless, he is a Skywalker). He could mirror and copy his father's technique, and when enraged, Vader couldn't do anything. Just like how Knightfall Anakin is a 9 and could fight Yoda and Sidious on equal terms. The dark side amped him, just like Luke got amped by his anger on the death start in ROTJ.[/B]
Luke was just better than his father. Quicker, younger, and in his prime whereas Vader wasn't in his prime anymore. The emperor wanted to replace his used up old ass. Luke is better than Vader in almost every way. Emotions amp people so he could allow the amp without it compromising his focus. Good for like bad for Vader.
4. That's a poor mistake on Vader's end. He's reckless. Again your excuses don't make the mistake go away. He got hit by an inexperienced and mistake prone Luke.
4. With ESB, Luke grazed Vader's shoulder because Vader was going all out and not caring about his own defenses. But once he gets hit, he decides its time to stop playing around and immediately follows up by disarming Luke.5. Can you confirm that Maul is quicker? And how does he have a stronger will than Vader? Vader literally killed the Anakin inside him.
[/B]
5. Watch their movement speed. Vader let the Anakin out and it destroyed Vader in the end. Anakin won out in the end.
False. Mid it were that easy Yoda would have beaten Dooku who he held an obvious force power advantage over. Dooku had more force power over Kenobi but still needed to duel him and defeat him in combat when an opening presented itself.
Then Vader could just sit there and win in a force battle and not even bother pulling out his lightsaber?Plus, Maul during rebels admits he cannot defeat Vader alone. He also appears to be scared of Vader.[/B]
Maul is lying to gain the trust of Kanan and Tano until the moment arises to backstab them.
No, since Maul and Tano use different styles and he's familiar with Tano not Maul.
Not only this, but Feloni says that if they were to come up against each other, Vader would beat Maul. It's irrelevant if he said it instead of writing it down. That would mean most of the George Lucas statements we use mean nothing.If Maul and Tano were fighting evenly, then Vader has proven that he can keep up with Maul in terms of speed anyway. [/B]
Filoni's opinion is just his own since we have never seen a duel between the two in canon.
Originally posted by Rebel95Qui and Kenobi. Kenobi beat Vader at his best pre suit. His quicker movement and aggressive style would defeat Vader. Vader was lapped and exposed for a far slower opponent against an experoenced Luke. Vader doesn't have one legit win over any great opponent while in the suit. Kenobi allowed the kill strike.
Maul's never beaten anyone close to Vader's level, he consistently loses to far weaker opponents. Simply saying Maul would win because he's fast doesn't mean anything, you need to prove it.
Originally posted by samappoSoD Maul has more feats to make the best case in a matchup between the two.
Also Quanchi, if we wanna talk about prime Vader (ROTJ) and prime Maul (which *I think* you believe to be SoD, though you don't really give a straight answer from memory) all of the canon points towards Vader, not Maul. There is not one shred of evidence from canon that suggests Vader could not take Maul.Also consider that ROTJ Vader is even more powerful than his Rebels/ANH incarnation.
Wait, does that mean ROTJ Luke could beat Maul? Oh man, Maul just isn't getting lucky at all 😉 After Jinn, has he ever beat another Jedi? Not from memory he hasn't. Heck, Kanan poned him lol.
Gotta give Maul points for trying and willpower though. Too bad he doesn't win any duels.
Yes, there is your mind is already made up and you've already reached your conclusion. Vader's status in the universe doesn't win any matchups against anyone in a theoretical debate. We compare strengths and weaknesses and how these guys match up.
Debatable. Maul bested Kenobi since then and he defeated Grievous as well. He also took on Sidious. He killed Jedi as soon as he came back in clone wars. Kanan pwned Vader as well. Tano also struck Vader and ****ed his ass up.
Maul would beat the highly overrated Vader who didn't beat any elite opponent in a fair duel that he earned. He's weak.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Faulty abc logic. He dropped his guard and his comments prior to make this so obvious it's slapping the viewer in the face.Quicker mobility, higher skill with a saber. What he does with a light saber and the fluidity of his movements Vader cannot do. Maul's strengths exploit Vader's weaknesses.
Bad arguments. Tano also has 'fluidity of movements' and 'quicker mobility' than Vader, but he beat her and was pushing her back for most of the duel.
Not faulty at all. Three strikes is all it took for Kenobi to defeat Maul. Three. It doesn't matter how broken and lost Maul was, three strikes is extremely impressive for Kenobi and quite pathetic for Maul. While Filoni has said that Maul was broken and lost and didn't progress and Kenobi progressed considerably and became wiser, etc., he also plainly states someone as good as Kenobi wasn't going to take longer than that to defeat someone like Maul. That's how far above he is, and unless you can actually prove that a prime Maul is a match for Rebels Kenobi, you have very little going on in your favor.
Originally posted by PetrusVader trained her and was familiar with her style. He doesn't have intimate knowledge of Maul's tendencies. Quit avoiding that crucial difference just because you love Vader.
Bad arguments. Tano also has 'fluidity of movements' and 'quicker mobility' than Vader, but he beat her and was pushing her back for most of the duel.Not faulty at all. Three strikes is all it took for Kenobi to defeat Maul. Three. It doesn't matter how broken and lost Maul was, three strikes is extremely impressive for Kenobi and quite pathetic for Maul. While Filoni has said that Maul was broken and lost and didn't progress and Kenobi progressed considerably and became wiser, etc., he also plainly states someone as good as Kenobi wasn't going to take longer than that to defeat someone like Maul. That's how far above he is, and unless you can actually prove that a prime Maul is a match for Rebels Kenobi, you have very little going on in your favor.
Due to a similar move being the fatal one. It does matter what mindsets you're in. You're ignoring why Kenobi won. He was at a great place mentally and Maul was at a terrible place. That's why he lost and he still considered it a master duel despite the brevity if the scene. You are biased and ignoring the physical and mental degradation of Maul over the years. You're biased and angry. 😂
Originally posted by quanchi112
Vader trained her and was familiar with her style. He doesn't have intimate knowledge of Maul's tendencies. Quit avoiding that crucial difference just because you love Vader.
Oh, just like Maul was familiar with Kenobi? Kek. You said 'Maul's strengths exploits Vader's weaknesses', but the moment I mention Tano also has those qualities, you say 'but he's familiar with her'. So you're saying Tano > Vader, and he only won because he knew her moveset and tendencies? If so, lmao.
Where's your proof? Also, where's your proof that Maul's skill with a lightsaber is superior to Vader's? You sure make a lot of claims, but provide zero evidence.
Due to a similar move being the fatal one. It does matter what mindsets you're in. You're ignoring why Kenobi won. He was at a great place mentally and Maul was at a terrible place. That's why he lost and he still considered it a master duel despite the brevity if the scene. You are biased and ignoring the physical and mental degradation of Maul over the years. You're biased and angry. 😂
Okay so, mainly due to the fact that Kenobi destroyed Maul in three moves, you now decide that him being 'broken and lost' is a big factor here? One can be broken and lost and still put up good fights, you know. Like he did against Ahsoka, or the Inqs. So, even if he lost because of that reason only -- according to you, anyway -- losing in three moves is pathetic. I mean, look at what he was able to do in that state against Tano. Kenobi must really be above him if all he could pull off was three strikes, considering we're talking about the same iteration of Maul as seen in S2.
Oh yeah, sure, Maul definitely seemed physically degraded in S2... Except that he really didn't, pretending to be frail just to unleash his true self afterwards. His mental degradation sure as hell didn't seem to be a big factor when fighting Tano and the Inqs, either, as he performed quite admirably in fact.
Try again.
Oh and you're one of the most biased members of this forum so don't make me laugh. 😂 And I'm not angry at all, I enjoy destroying your delusions and watch your denial later.
More powerful force wise which doesn't mean he's at his absolute best.He never injures her or disarms her. Despite teaching her and being so above her he wasn't able to significant injure or even disarm her. Vader fanboys make up excuses. He didn't best her to suggest man this guy is on another level. He forced Kenobi back in rots and look how that turned out.
Well I'm pretty sure that's from the novel so let's talk about canon.
Uh he does injure her? He force pushes her off the temple. And in ROTS Anakin is on another level to Kenobi. He is a 9, Kenobi is an 8, showing that different levels of duelists can still fight for a considerable time depending on context and circumstances.
For example in ROTS Anakin gets too cocky with the high ground, but if they had been fighting on neutral ground the whole time, Anakin would have won. It's canon.
The fight between Vader and Tano goes for about 15-20 seconds before Vader pushes her off the edge of the temple. Just because Vader concentrated his thoughts and she surprise attacked him and took off some of his helmet doesn't make her the superior duelist, just like Kenobi jumping up and killing Maul didn't make him the superior duelist. Except, Kenobi actually managed to kill his opponent, Tano just managed to scrape off some of the mask.
The context matters. He only lost due to allowing it. Facts matter.
Holy moly the irony. YES the context matters. You are literally saying 'he lost the duel because he allowed it' whilst IGNORING the context I presented. ACCORDING to the script for the movie, Kenobi is LOSING the duel. THAT is the context of the fight. Even if he didn't allow himself to get killed, he would eventually lose the duel. That is the ****ing context. You just don't get it do you?
Luke was just better than his father. Quicker, younger, and in his prime whereas Vader wasn't in his prime anymore. The emperor wanted to replace his used up old ass. Luke is better than Vader in almost every way. Emotions amp people so he could allow the amp without it compromising his focus. Good for like bad for Vader.
Provide the canon source showing Vader to not be in his prime and I will concede that point.
4. That's a poor mistake on Vader's end. He's reckless. Again your excuses don't make the mistake go away. He got hit by an inexperienced and mistake prone Luke.5. Watch their movement speed. Vader let the Anakin out and it destroyed Vader in the end. Anakin won out in the end.
1. Reckless? Sure, but he put Luke on the floor. Then Luke got a lucky shot at Vader, and Vader immediately disarms Luke. Obviously he was in control the whole time.
2. Watch their movement speed? If Vader is keeping with Tano and overpowering the hell out of her, then I don't see why he can't keep up with Maul?
So what if Anakin came out in the end? So did Maul's little ***** mode when Sidious ragdolled him, or when Maul was talking to Kenobi after he got pwned after three strikes.
False. Mid it were that easy Yoda would have beaten Dooku who he held an obvious force power advantage over. Dooku had more force power over Kenobi but still needed to duel him and defeat him in combat when an opening presented itself.Maul is lying to gain the trust of Kanan and Tano until the moment arises to backstab them.
Dooku didn't 'need' to duel Kenobi. Prove otherwise.
You could take that either way. Maul does seem to be scared of Vader though.
No, since Maul and Tano use different styles and he's familiar with Tano not Maul.Filoni's opinion is just his own since we have never seen a duel between the two in canon.
Being familiar with style doesn't mean anything if you can't keep up in speed. So irrelevant point.
Feloni's opinion is just his own? So whenever GL talks about his opinion on the movies it really isn't canon at all?
Originally posted by quanchi112
SoD Maul has more feats to make the best case in a matchup between the two.Yes, there is your mind is already made up and you've already reached your conclusion. Vader's status in the universe doesn't win any matchups against anyone in a theoretical debate. We compare strengths and weaknesses and how these guys match up.
Debatable. Maul bested Kenobi since then and he defeated Grievous as well. He also took on Sidious. He killed Jedi as soon as he came back in clone wars. Kanan pwned Vader as well. Tano also struck Vader and ****ed his ass up.
Maul would beat the highly overrated Vader who didn't beat any elite opponent in a fair duel that he earned. He's weak.
Compare strengths and weaknesses xD Let me guess, Maul is quicker and more agile. So was Tano.
When did Maul best Kenobi? I don't remeber Maul beating Greivous?
No, he didn't "take on" Sidious. Sidious had fun and played around.
Kanan did not pwn Vader. Vader pwned Kanan and he was basically just ****ing around.
Tano did not **** Vader's ass up. She took off a bit of his mask. Cool.