Maul's growth as a duelist

Started by Rebel959 pages

Originally posted by quanchi112
If he needed them to contend with Vader why would he turn on them before getting out of the vicinity of Vader.

Maul blinded him and had him dead to rights. Tano intervened. Maul was arrogant and fell off without any injuries.

He lied to Ezra and his actions pretty much confirmed that you dope. Maul is great and him surviving decades on his own without any tried and true allies shows how much willpower the man has. There will never be another Maul. Ever.


Because fighting Vader wasn't his plan. His plan was to retrieve the holocron, and to do so he needed to get rid of them.

He blinded him with a cheap shot, yeah. No he didn't fall off, he was thrown off by Kanan. Lol

No he didn't and his actions don't confirm anything. Yeah he's great and has a lot of will power, he's one of my favorite characters as well. But the fact of the matter is he's not as great as you'd like him to be

Originally posted by Kurk
Maul wouldn't have a problem landing a precision strike on it.

Yeah just like all the other people Vader's fought have had such an easy time doing that

Originally posted by Rebel95
Because fighting Vader wasn't his plan. His plan was to retrieve the holocron, and to do so he needed to get rid of them.

He blinded him with a cheap shot, yeah. No he didn't fall off, he was thrown off by Kanan. Lol

No he didn't and his actions don't confirm anything. Yeah he's great and has a lot of will power, he's one of my favorite characters as well. But the fact of the matter is he's not as great as you'd like him to be

So he lied to them about needing them against Vader. You just disagree with my reason this you agree he still uti lately lied so you can't take a certain flawed statement any part of it as a true indicator of his opinion.

Kanan has access to the force and was dead to rights. Tano has to intervene to save his life.

It's funny people claim Kenobi beat Maul when Maul threw him out of the vicinity with the force but still maintain Kanan won. You're a hypocrite. Maul already had him beat and was arrogant as I have said.

At his height of power he was deemed a rival to Palpatine.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So he lied to them about needing them against Vader. You just disagree with my reason this you agree he still uti lately lied so you can't take a certain flawed statement any part of it as a true indicator of his opinion.

Kanan has access to the force and was dead to rights. Tano has to intervene to save his life.

It's funny people claim Kenobi beat Maul when Maul threw him out of the vicinity with the force but still maintain Kanan won. You're a hypocrite. Maul already had him beat and was arrogant as I have said.

At his height of power he was deemed a rival to Palpatine.


What are you even talking about?

Again, not really sure what you're talking about. Maul cheapshotted Kanan and then got humiliated. It's as simple as that

Yet still got his ass whooped and brother killed by Sidious. So that really doesn't mean anything

Originally posted by Rebel95
What are you even talking about?

Again, not really sure what you're talking about. Maul cheapshotted Kanan and then got humiliated. It's as simple as that

Yet still got his ass whooped and brother killed by Sidious. So that really doesn't mean anything

Maul manipulating Ezra by telling him he needs those a,lies to deal with Vader.

The force allows you to determine certain actions with precog. Maul is a bad guy he isn't going to scream here I come before he tries to eliminate someone in his way.

He still took on the most powerful dark sider of that era by himself. That means a lot. You wanting to say ignore it while jumping ahead decades to a broken and lost Maul is just more of the same. You're biased.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Maul manipulating Ezra by telling him he needs those a,lies to deal with Vader.

The force allows you to determine certain actions with precog. Maul is a bad guy he isn't going to scream here I come before he tries to eliminate someone in his way.

He still took on the most powerful dark sider of that era by himself. That means a lot. You wanting to say ignore it while jumping ahead decades to a broken and lost Maul is just more of the same. You're biased.


What?

Yeah I understand that,but it was still a cheapshot and he still got humiliated by Kanan.

I agree it was impressive that he was able to fight Sidious even for a short amount of time, but ultimately he was still no match for him. I'm not really seeing how I'm biased, especially when you're the one coming up with all the excuses for your favorite character. I'm just pointing out the obvious lol

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Ventress can beat Maul by outsmarting him... yet the much less intelligent Savage matched her pretty closely in their duel without being outsmarted?
I guess Maul is stupider than even Savage. 🙂

The scene definitely represents the evolution of both Kenobi and Maul as swordsmen. The scene does make sense, and there is a lot of background information that explains that.

Now, Maul before his injuries inflicted by Kenobi had a far different mindset than he did during the clone wars and rebels. During the duel of fates he was a calculating fighter. He controlled the fight, letting Qui-Gon lead him to the generator room. He allowed his adversary to do so, in order to weaken Jinn since he wouldn't be able to use Ataru properly in such a confined space. This combined with Ataru's weak defence allowed Maul to then go on the offensive once Jinn tired and dissect his defences.
After he lost his legs to Kenobi, Maul changed as a fighter. Sure he still remained a Juyo specialist, but instead of attempting to strategise during fights, he instead approached fights with blind fury.

Kenobi was an Ataru specialist but began studying Soresu after the duel of fates to make up for Ataru's main weakness, defence. He later mastered Soresu to its highest degree, which became his primary form. Windu called him the reigning master of Soresu.

Masters of Soresu have never had their lightsaber defences broken, but it is theorised that only Juyo could penetrate the defences of a Soresu master. Then again, Kenobi during the time of this duel did not practice much.

For the duel itself, I will describe what happens. Obi-Wan brandishes his lightsaber and puts himself in a Soresu stance. Maul then changes his stance twice. On the next change, Kenobi does something curious. He changes his stance to that of Ataru, the exact stance Jinn used against Maul, and the form Jinn and Kenobi himself used against Maul during duel of the fates.

Maul then attacks, instead of a defensive strike, Kenobi actually swings his saber to meet Maul's swing. An Ataru response instead of a Soresu response. After the second strike, which Kenobi aptly defends, Maul attempts the move he used on Jinn: moving his hilt up in order to stun, following with a killing blow. Kenobi however cuts the hilt of Maul's saber before he can finish the move.

My theory is that Kenobi adopted an Ataru stance in order to trick Maul into thinking he could pull off the same trick on Kenobi as he did Jinn. The fact that Maul did not think about what he was doing but instead relied on blind rage only made this worse for him.

That's my two cents on the fight.

Originally posted by Rebel95
Because fighting Vader wasn't his plan. His plan was to retrieve the holocron, and to do so he needed to get rid of them.

Dude all you have to tell him is that Kenobi Owned him, so there's no reason whatsoever that Vader wouldn't beat him down hard. Given this same Kenobi gave it everything he had, but simply could not defeat Vader.

Ergo Maul spoke the truth about being unable to fight Vader.

ANH Vader >/= ANH Kenobi >>> Rebels Maul. Shown clearly in Canon. End of. After that just laugh at him and let him troll on.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Dude all you have to tell him is that Kenobi Owned him, so there's no reason whatsoever that Vader wouldn't beat him down hard. Given this same Kenobi gave it everything he had, but simply could not defeat Vader.

Ergo Maul spoke the truth about being unable to fight Vader.

ANH Vader >/= ANH Kenobi >>> Rebels Maul. Shown clearly in Canon. End of. After that just laugh at him and let him troll on.

Kenobi is an entirely different character with multiple fights and experience with each other. Kenobi didn't want to best Vader and already defeated a prime Rots Vader. Kenobi fought a broken Maul outside of his prime. Maul was well past his prime in rebels. It's always been the case. I tried to tell you idiots before but your retardation always gets in the way.

Kenobi matched Vader blow for blow and only allowed him the win. Vader didn't earn it. Pitiful considering Kenobi ****ed him up all those years ago and wrecked his former pupils body.

Originally posted by Rebel95
What?

Yeah I understand that,but it was still a cheapshot and he still got humiliated by Kanan.

I agree it was impressive that he was able to fight Sidious even for a short amount of time, but ultimately he was still no match for him. I'm not really seeing how I'm biased, especially when you're the one coming up with all the excuses for your favorite character. I'm just pointing out the obvious lol

Incorrect. Vader was knocked on his ass by Kanan and Ezra.

Maul blinded Kanan. Vader grazed his shoulder. Maul is well past his prime but still met up with Tano and was completely fine and she got the better of Vader.

We see only the elites can match Sheev for the amount of time Maul did. You cannot take that away. Maul is elite but was past his prime in the rebels era but was still elite just not as elite.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Incorrect. Vader was knocked on his ass by Kanan and Ezra.

Maul blinded Kanan. Vader grazed his shoulder. Maul is well past his prime but still met up with Tano and was completely fine and she got the better of Vader.

We see only the elites can match Sheev for the amount of time Maul did. You cannot take that away. Maul is elite but was past his prime in the rebels era but was still elite just not as elite.


Vader tossed them around like nothing and made them run away because they knew they had no chance. Maul on the other hand was humiliated by Kanan alone. These are the facts.

Maul blinded Kanan by taking him by surprise, Vader struck Kanan's shoulder in the middle of a duel while also toying with Ezra. Maul was unable to beat Tano, whereas Vader drove her back the entire time and likely killed her. These are also the facts.

Maul fought Sidious alone for like 10 seconds and then got ragdolled lmao

Vader's superiority over Maul is flat out stated by the author of SoD and by Maul himself. Get over it

Originally posted by Rebel95

Vader's superiority over Maul is flat out stated by the author of SoD and by Maul himself. Get over it

👆

Also confirmed by Filoni himself, and Witwer himself.

Not to mention the huge disparity between Maul and Old Ben is proof enough.

Originally posted by Rebel95
Vader tossed them around like nothing and made them run away because they knew they had no chance. Maul on the other hand was humiliated by Kanan alone. These are the facts.

Maul blinded Kanan by taking him by surprise, Vader struck Kanan's shoulder in the middle of a duel while also toying with Ezra. Maul was unable to beat Tano, whereas Vader drove her back the entire time and likely killed her. These are also the facts.

Maul fought Sidious alone for like 10 seconds and then got ragdolled lmao

Vader's superiority over Maul is flat out stated by the author of SoD and by Maul himself. Get over it

Vader had a huge thing dropped on him. He didn't want that. Maul blinded him. Vader failed in that episode twice. That's a fact. Maul had a more profound effect on Ezra than Vader. That's another fact.

Vader had his helmet ****ed up by her. He limped off at the end of the season. He looked defeated because he was. Maul took a tie fighter and was alone. Vader ran back to the empire as he always does after another humiliating defeat. Vader was also unable to defeat Tano save he took a critical hit. We also see her walk away at the end of the episode. Your ignorance is appalling but expected.

Maul lied to manipulate Ezra and he was well past his prime. He was broken and lost at the time of the rebels era. Maul's will is greater than Vader's but his force power isn't. I've never contested this. Maul in his prime would beat the shit out of Vader. His agility and skill with a saber is too much for the diminished Vader.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Vader had a huge thing dropped on him. He didn't want that. Maul blinded him. Vader failed in that episode twice. That's a fact. Maul had a more profound effect on Ezra than Vader. That's another fact.

Vader had his helmet ****ed up by her. He limped off at the end of the season. He looked defeated because he was. Maul took a tie fighter and was alone. Vader ran back to the empire as he always does after another humiliating defeat. Vader was also unable to defeat Tano save he took a critical hit. We also see her walk away at the end of the episode. Your ignorance is appalling but expected.

Maul lied to manipulate Ezra and he was well past his prime. He was broken and lost at the time of the rebels era. Maul's will is greater than Vader's but his force power isn't. I've never contested this. Maul in his prime would beat the shit out of Vader. His agility and skill with a saber is too much for the diminished Vader.


Maul was thrown off a cliff by Kanan. That's a fact. Kanan and Ezra gave everything they had and were still unable to stop Vader. That's a fact.

Vader was caught off guard by Ahsoka and only limped off because of the massive explosion which would probably kill just about anyone else.

It was even said in an interview that the original plan was to have Vader kill Maul, but they decided to have Kenobi do it. You've failed to provide any reasons why Maul would win other than just saying Vader's slow, lmao. You're opinion doesn't matter compared to the author of SoD, filoni, and Maul himself. Nice try though.

Originally posted by quanchi112
1. What outdated continuity ?

2. No, it's an indication of wisdom gained. Based off what has he improved as a fighter in rebels ? Provide the quote. So surviving means you grow in power. You need the evidence to prove his power has increased or the reference in the show. You have nothing but your idiotic opinion as a source.

3. Based off what ?? Your mental state is very important in a sporting event, fight, or any type of competitive endeavor. Are you retarded ?

4. He wasn't amped. Prove it. He also handed him his ass prior to his arrogance in APM. Maul bfrd him which is a victory according to forum rules.


1. Lucas's intention of ben and vader being post prime doesn't apply to new canon, just like maul's original purpose of just being a skilled assasin has been replaced and is outdated.

2. https://youtu.be/8eIZsJsck7A?t=7m33s
"The actual duel is very short, how did you come to the conclusion it had to come this way?...(feloni) If you talk to a lot of people who sword fight, they'll tell you people who are very good don't have long fights. So that scene, its a homage to the 7th samurai. I think on one level people would be excited to see a prolonged lightsaber fight. But I just never really saw the confrontation that way because to do that is to say the characters don't have growth "
sum up:
One of the reasons for the fight being so short(in addition to them having fought multiple times) compared to their previous duels is feloni wanted to show growth and that kenobi and maul are very good fighters(compared to their previous versions). This along with them having fought multiple times was the reason why the fight was so short. In addition to this we have maul having 15 years to grow in power, showcasing new force abilities on a scope we've never seen before, and witwer's own comments(which pertained to how he was as a fighter).

Maul being emotionally broken(as sith often are) and kenobi winning because he was able to anticipate what kenobi did and having better emotional control(you know, quintessential jedi) doesn't change that this is maul in his prime.

3. kenobi being emotionally better, more focused, and being able to anticipate him better isn't circumstantial. It makes kenobi the better fighter and why "(maul) isn't beating that". BTW, maul being mentally unhinged isn't something that wasn't there as of tcw as deathsentence should make clear.

4. TPM kenobi(and tpm maul) weren't in their prime. And maul being amped is based on maul dreaming about kenobi cutting him in half before their fight and him screaming kenobi when he wakes up.

Also, maul losing to a oneness kanan doesn't remotely serve as valid eveidence that he declined(unless you want to accept tcw maul struggling with someone who lost to tcw ahsoka and getting tackled by a dog as valid eveidence). Bringing up Maul's tcw tk feats doesn't help anything as maul, having grown and being active for 15 years would logically be more powerful and capable of surpassing. On the other hand Maul's ability to mentally fck with force users from across the galaxy(using a force bond) create visions of himself is crap tcw maul was never shown as capable of doing.

And dueling wise, trying to say his performances vs tcw kenobi somehow place him above a version of maul capable of matching a challenge to vader in his prime is laughable.

Originally posted by Rebel95
Maul was thrown off a cliff by Kanan. That's a fact. Kanan and Ezra gave everything they had and were still unable to stop Vader. That's a fact.

Vader was caught off guard by Ahsoka and only limped off because of the massive explosion which would probably kill just about anyone else.

It was even said in an interview that the original plan was to have Vader kill Maul, but they decided to have Kenobi do it. You've failed to provide any reasons why Maul would win other than just saying Vader's slow, lmao. You're opinion doesn't matter compared to the author of SoD, filoni, and Maul himself. Nice try though.

After Maul had him beaten and was about to kill him. Maul was uninjured. That's also a fact. Kanan and Ezra still got the better of him. They escaped. Vader had no impact on either whereas Maul psychologically affected Ezra while he blinded Kanan. Your perception isn't a fact.

Vader has precog and decades of experience. Boohoo. He's shit since she's his former student and he was completely caught off guard despite knowing she hasn't been killed. It didn't kill Tano or anyone else of note you dummy. What's more you can't claim any of it struck Vader besides the fact he had a suit protecting him unlike Tano.

Yes, they decided to axe that so it isn't a fact. It was shit and never became canon you degenerative brain disease.

Maul's quickness is a huge advantage he has over Vader. I can give you multiple examples of Vader being too slow to react and have already listed some examples. Again another person's opinion but this is a theoretical matchup outside of canon. Maul wins. Vader is slow and Maul is quick. Pretty obvious winner here.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. Lucas's intention of ben and vader being post prime doesn't apply to new canon, just like maul's original purpose of just being a skilled assasin has been replaced and is outdated.
The films are still canon and he still was the mastermind. That holds massive weight since Disney hasn't done away with the previous films created by Lucas. Maul has evolved as a character under Lucas' direction you ****. Maul was always highly skilled and an amazing Sith swordsman.

2. https://youtu.be/8eIZsJsck7A?t=7m33s
"The actual duel is very short, how did you come to the conclusion it had to come this way?...(feloni) If you talk to a lot of people who sword fight, they'll tell you people who are very good don't have long fights. So that scene, its a homage to the 7th samurai. I think on one level people would be excited to see a prolonged lightsaber fight. But I just never really saw the confrontation that way because to do that is to say the characters don't have growth "
sum up:
One of the reasons for the fight being so short(in addition to them having fought multiple times) compared to their previous duels is feloni wanted to show growth and that kenobi and maul are very good fighters(compared to their previous versions). This along with them having fought multiple times was the reason why the fight was so short. In addition to this we have maul having 15 years to grow in power, showcasing new force abilities on a scope we've never seen before, and witwer's own comments(which pertained to how he was as a fighter).
[/B]


“It really is to express the difference between the Jedi and the Sith. Which is the Jedi become selfless and the Sith remain selfish. When pressed, because Obi-Wan is protecting someone else in the end, he does fight. But because he is so true and knows who he is in that moment, you can’t defeat that. So Obi-Wan is going to strike down Maul because Maul is such a broken and lost person,

In the exact moment they fight Maul is broken and Kenobi knows who he is so it's the perfect situation with an unavoidable outcome according to Filoni. Undeniable. Maul also didn't spar and keep his skills in check. It's common sense since he's been isolated and no one to train with as well as being lost psychologically trying to find a person and locking in on Kenobi. I'm smarter than you.


Maul being emotionally broken(as sith often are) and kenobi winning because he was able to anticipate what kenobi did and having better emotional control(you know, quintessential jedi) doesn't change that this is maul in his prime.
[/B]
Maul was lost as a person and unable to find eho he was in the moment so as well as being out of practice he's psychologically at a terrible place at the moment of this duel. What other Sith are lost and defeat a true Jedi master with decades of experience at that moment. The new comic series of Maul describes he's in his prime. That's canon. Nothing about Filoni's comments state he's at his best or in his prime. If you look at what he does say the words imply the opposite. If you look at this logically no one gets better this much older after having been isolated for decades and lost as an individual searching for a new purpose.


3. kenobi being emotionally better, more focused, and being able to anticipate him better isn't circumstantial. It makes kenobi the better fighter and why "(maul) isn't beating that". BTW, maul being mentally unhinged isn't something that wasn't there as of tcw as deathsentence should make clear.[/B]

Maul has gotten worse with time. We see his mind has deteriorated worse in rebels. He's always been a little unstable since we see him after the Phantom Menace incident but with age and more times he's gotten worse and not better. Isolation isn't good for anyone. Kenobi knew who he was so this put him at a huge advantage over Maul who can't let go of anything. Maul died in combat as a warrior. Kenobi has a legitimate purpose outside his own and he wasn't losing especially when taking on a broken Maul.


4. TPM kenobi(and tpm maul) weren't in their prime. And maul being amped is based on maul dreaming about kenobi cutting him in half before their fight and him screaming kenobi when he wakes up.
[/B]
Maul was in his physical prime then and Kenobi was disarmed. Maul taunted him and dropped his awareness which allowed for the mishap to take place. Kenobi was at his best in the clone wars series and Maul continuously showed him up throughout the duration of the show.


Also, maul losing to a oneness kanan doesn't remotely serve as valid eveidence that he declined(unless you want to accept tcw maul struggling with someone who lost to tcw ahsoka and getting tackled by a dog as valid eveidence). Bringing up Maul's tcw tk feats doesn't help anything as maul, having grown and being active for 15 years would logically be more powerful and capable of surpassing. On the other hand Maul's ability to mentally fck with force users from across the galaxy(using a force bond) create visions of himself is crap tcw maul was never shown as capable of doing.

And dueling wise, trying to say his performances vs tcw kenobi somehow place him above a version of maul capable of matching a challenge to vader in his prime is laughable. [/B]

Maul was arrogant and didn't take him seriously especially just having been blinded. Maul had declined as a combatant due to his older age and lack of sparring sprinkled with his insanity revving up over the heads.

He was tackled by a dog. Who cares ?? He took on elite assassins and I've seen Hondo and his pirates take Dooku, Kenobi, and Anakin as their prisoners. I accept all showings. These guys aren't without error and only fanboys want to dismiss certain facts to turn their faves into greater than they are. Despicable.

Just because he learned a new tactic that doesn't mean his skills with a light saber also increased. They aren't one and the same.

Maul defeated Kenobi twice and Vader did no such thing only after Kenobi granted him that victory due to it increasing his power and reach through the force. Maul taking on Sidious who would slap the dogshit out of Vader in a duel is another notch on Maul's bedpost in his favor. He's too quick for Vader. His advantage would exploit Vader's greatest deficiency.

Originally posted by quanchi112
After Maul had him beaten and was about to kill him. Maul was uninjured. That's also a fact. Kanan and Ezra still got the better of him. They escaped. Vader had no impact on either whereas Maul psychologically affected Ezra while he blinded Kanan. Your perception isn't a fact.

Vader has precog and decades of experience. Boohoo. He's shit since she's his former student and he was completely caught off guard despite knowing she hasn't been killed. It didn't kill Tano or anyone else of note you dummy. What's more you can't claim any of it struck Vader besides the fact he had a suit protecting him unlike Tano.

Yes, they decided to axe that so it isn't a fact. It was shit and never became canon you degenerative brain disease.

Maul's quickness is a huge advantage he has over Vader. I can give you multiple examples of Vader being too slow to react and have already listed some examples. Again another person's opinion but this is a theoretical matchup outside of canon. Maul wins. Vader is slow and Maul is quick. Pretty obvious winner here.


Difference is Kanan alone got the better of Maul by throwing him off a cliff, whereas Kanan and Ezra had to run away from Vader. Simple as that.

None of what you say matters since Vader killed Ben Kenobi and Maul was killed by him in 3 strikes. Go cry about it loser.

It still shows that the creators of star wars have Vader>Maul. Instead they decided to have a slightly weaker person kill Maul. Sucks for you and your precious Maul lmao

Sadly this is all your opinion which doesn't mean shit. Go live in your fantasy world crybaby

Originally posted by Rebel95
Difference is Kanan alone got the better of Maul by throwing him off a cliff, whereas Kanan and Ezra had to run away from Vader. Simple as that.

None of what you say matters since Vader killed Ben Kenobi and Maul was killed by him in 3 strikes. Go cry about it loser.

It still shows that the creators of star wars have Vader>Maul. Instead they decided to have a slightly weaker person kill Maul. Sucks for you and your precious Maul lmao

Sadly this is all your opinion which doesn't mean shit. Go live in your fantasy world crybaby

For the reasons I had already explained. Kanan and Ezra were also fleeing the empire not just Vader. He wasn't alone. Vader was knocked down and not near a cliff. Maul left more of an impact on the two than shitty ass Vader.

Due to Maul being a broken person at the moment whereas Kenobi was sure of who he was. As per Filoni. You seem upset since Maul has routinely got the better of Kenobi whereas Vader only did so after Kenobi dropped his guard. 😂

Kenobi was a true Jedi unlike Vader who was the emperors ***** for two decades. Maul was past his prime and broken at the time of his death.

I posted Filoni's own words and my opinion is supported by common sense, facts, and evidence. Yours isn't based off anything other than retardation.