Spiderman VS Wolverine in a headbutt fest

Originally posted by emu
Considering the topic, if Roughhouse wasn't hitting wolverine over an extended amount of time specifically to burn out Wolverines HF I wouldn't of brought it up :/
Roughhouse is linked to Asgard, and at the least hinted to be a troll.
I'd throw scans at you, but my collections gone, and I'm on my phone....kill me.
And it doesn't matter if Logans HF was better back then, since Logan has adamantium for this it comes down to Spidermans durability than anything else.

please i would like to see the scan of roughhouse punching him repeatedly. also, its important for us to knock how strong he is because it does take a certain amount of strength to be able to damage his brain inside of the skull. spiderman has enough strength t do it. he did it before. daredevil did it with a dumbell. how strong is rougehouse as far as punching power?

you brought the fact wolverine didnt have his adamantium as some kind of proof that it was a disadvantage to his healing factor. i simply corrected you. therefor, with adamantium his healing factor is less than the feat you presented. spidermans durability is enough to take hits from hulk, rhino, venom, namor, ironman atc atc atc and keep on going. wolverine also has great durability feats, this is why i said no point in low balling anyone. we all know the durability level of spiderman more or less, lets keep the discussion true to the truth.

Blinders won't help here, gentlemen.

Wolverine wins this. Automatically, 10/10.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It amazes me that no one ever seems to have simply sat down and made an illustrated list of some of the things we've been discussing, let alone something with reference information so people can follow.

No wonder people seem to think Wolverine can't be knocked out.

But through just the research I've done the past few days here, I've found Logan dropped or undeniably made 10-count ready at some point with nearly every major hero I've looked at. Here's my list so far:

[b]Wolverine versus Daredevil.

Source: Wolverine #24, Volume 3. Enemy of the State, Part 5 of 6.[/B]

Not knocked out, only lasted due to scrambling of mindcontrol.

Wolverine versus Captain America.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=641421&pagenumber=9

Source: Wolverine #25, Volume 3. Enemy of the State, Part 6 of 6.[/B]

Very incomplete scan, he took a ton of damage, including a blast from Rachel Phoenix, a plane crash, a log to the head from Kitty, and a blast from Cyclops, almost all of it taking place at near freezing temperatures.

Wolverine versus Sabretooth.

Source: Wolverine #10, Volume 1.[/B]

Very, very early in his life, no longer applies to current Wolverine.

Wolverine versus Spider-Man.

Source: Superior Spider-Man storyline (Otto Octavius a.k.a. Doctor Octopus)[/B]

Not knocked out, just temporarily incapacitated. On the next page, he gets up, and traps him faster than Ock can react to, even while utilizing his spider sense.

Wolverine versus Thing.

Source: Fantastic Four versus X-Men 4-part miniseries[/B]

Early version of the character, has developed a much stronger healing factor over the years.

Wolverine versus Namor.

Source: New Warriors storyline ... Wolverine and Namor bring the villain Nitro to justice after the murder of Namorita[/B]

Very incomplete scan, only took place after he was blasted to a skeleton, and had an extended fight with a super strong Atlantean Royal Guard.

Wolverine versus Magneto.

Source: Uncanny X-Men. Want to say issue 108, Volume 1.[/B]

Very early depiction, no longer applies.

Wolverine versus Hulk.

Source: The Incredible Hulk #181, Volume 1. [/B]

Very early depiction, no longer applies.

Originally posted by Dareangel
you basically see motion at first but then if you watch closely its the same slash and stub with both arms. his claws are stuck. at the third scan you see WWH punching him in the face causing his body to twist. watch the next scan wolverine is having his eyes closed he is out. you wana tell me he is fighting with his eyes closed? his position changed because hulk punched him while he is already done, therefor his body is twisting already with the punch.

I can understand the claws that were stabbing Hulk's arm being stuck, but the claws that were slashing? How does it make sense that an arm can get stuck so that it repeatedly slashes Hulks arm? And it's not the same slash, it's at different angles, and targeting different parts of Hulk's arm. Yes, he's fighting with his eyes closed, not that difficult when the Hulk is literally holding him so that he remains within striking distance. Ok, so his body is twisting, that doesn't explain why he's still landing shots, instead of his hands falling back as they do once he starts to lose consciousness.

as i explained, its not a matter of who can punch harder, its a matter of having enough power to make his brain tilt inside of his skull. as i explained earlier, we saw spiderman driving wilverine with his back into a concrete and knocking him out. in order to knock out by bashing his back against the ground one has to have a lot of strength to be able to damage someone like that. so yeah spidys head is not a aoncrete but he has the strength.

No, we saw Superior Spider-Man taking Wolverine off guard, and slamming the back of his head into the ground. He was just temporarily incapacitated, by the next page he had recovered enough to outspeed Spidey's spider sense enhanced reflexes, and trap him at claw point.

moving on to durability. we saw wolverine pounding spdys face with his adamantium fists over and over and over again. nothing. didnt break anything as far as his facial structure. the skull is much more dence than facial bones. therefor, i think its also safe to say spidy can take multiple hits to his forehead from same adamantium. overall, those are the reasons why i believe spiderman will knock out wolverine with repeated headbutts.

I'll need to see these scans, happy to provide the Roughhouse scans in return. Just based on this description, if he was really hitting Spidey too fast for Spider-man to react to, then it's probable he was trading power in for speed. Not something he'll have to do in this headbutt contest. Not to mention, Spider-man will be his own worst enemy, after all, the harder he hits Wolverine's forehead with his, the harder the adamantium will be impacting him. I'll take Wolverine's healing and durabiltiy over Spider-man's durability any day.

Blue doesn't read our posts or the comics he posts scans from, Ize.

His next post will have Pete taking two punches from the Punisher! So much better than the Mr. Fear feat, dude!

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Blue doesn't read our posts or the comics he posts scans from, Ize.

His next post will have Pete taking two punches from the Punisher! So much better than the Mr. Fear feat, dude!

I really should know better, I know. It's just really hard for me to leave such ignorance unanswered. Ah well, pearls before swine.

Lol, yeah. It's pretty funny that he acts like every scan he's posted of Wolverine being "knocked out" hasn't been posted a million different times, by a million different haters. But he's busting the myth!

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You're not following this discussion very well if you honestly think what you just wrote, Ize.

Nor are you being objective by ignoring the sort of things D.S. has been posting both to initiate and continue this discussion throughout the thread.

My posts were not to initiate. They were in reply to Dareangel, who you may remember as the OP of this thread.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
😕

You're right to be confused, especially if you haven't read things fully (as I suspect, is becoming clearer and clearer):

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Erm....

Hulk's fist >>> Parker's head.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
2nd part of the so-called "Nightcrawler" versus Spider-man interaction.

I was originally against the showing because I suspected it involved a doppelgänger of Nightcrawler's who, being a comic book vampire or something of the like, would have power over flight in ADDITION to the inexplicable level of strength he'd been granted. As it is, it turned out, "Nightcrawler" was a SKRULL with extreme strength and flight ability.

A villain with great strength and speedy flight ability in the comic world, of course, can make a victim crash a lot harder than they would in free fall conditions. The dialogue, action, and narration of THIS story, implies the skrulls may have had even more than that going for them ...
(Note: The skrull who masquerades as Angel here was the same skrull who attacked Spider-Man as Nightcrawler.

Source:Fantastic Four #250

So I assume you have moved on from attempting to imply that the Skrull had Colossus' level mass? And are now attempting to imply he used his flight?

But....as your own scan shows (or rather, does NOT show)....Skrullcrawler did NOT use any flight powers.

Or if he did, he perhaps did so in your mind? I mean, I can also posit that he used concussive eyebeams, or a mental attack, or any number of Skrull-related skrullduggery - but without any proof.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
My posts were not to initiate. They were in reply to Dareangel, who you may remember as the OP of this thread.

"ignoring the sort of things D.S. has been posting" was my reference to you posting things like the following, D.S., which even Philosophia called you on back on page 6 or so:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
WWH? What about JJ Jameson??

Originally posted by Philosophia
I agree that Wolverine wins, but the disingenuous approach of 'Jameson punching Spiderman' vs 'WWH punching Wolverine' is staggering.

Anybody making fun of carver after this thread should combust instantaneously.

To be fair to you, though, D.S., this thread is one, that, even by its title, lends itself to exploring seeming absurdities. We're also exploring people's portrayals of fictional realms, not reality. Then again, even reality offers instances of seeming and real absurdities. Like how, say, a boxer could endure a 10 round fight where he weathers a hundred blows, some of them landing flush to his head. But if, on congratulating his opponent he got sucker punched instead of his hand shaken in return, he'd be knocked cold, possibly requiring hospitalization.

Finally, I'm genuinely curious to see if the high and low showings, absurd or otherwise, are relatively balanced between the two. Surprisingly, they might be.
You've got J. Jonah Jameson drawing blood from Peter, for instance.
Earlier today, though, I found this :

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
"ignoring the sort of things D.S. has been posting" was my reference to you posting things like the following, D.S., which even Philosophia called you on back on page 6 or so:

Except I had multiple question marks in my post, and never really (except tongue-in-cheek) referred to JJJ again.

If you did not see the humour in it, and took it seriously, then, well, that's on you.

Your use of Dillonverine, for instance, ignores heartily his HF AND his adamantium skull.

Neither of which Petey has.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except I had multiple question marks in my post, and never really (except tongue-in-cheek) referred to JJJ again.

If you did not see the humour in it, and took it seriously, then, well, that's on you.

Your use of Dillonverine, for instance, ignores heartily his HF AND his adamantium skull.

Neither of which Petey has.

Unless you're telling me Wolverine also lacks both of those, you're not saying very much. Note that someone giving him a bloody lip does nothing to preclude healing factors or adamantium.

And if it was just "on me" Phil wouldn't have thought it bad enough to call you on it. He and I don't agree on much of anything that I can recognize.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

Earlier today, though, I found this :

She broke her hand and Logan was fine.

Again, try reading comics you're posting scans from.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
A single strike from Logan has proven to be enough to KO Parker.

Adrenaline was flowing through SM's veins, so it's quite legit, unlike most cheapshot scenes:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, isn't that from an alt future type story where a Unicron/Apokolips -type Dr. Doom Warworld is about to destroy the planet?
I recognize the "all-destroying" Phoenix Bullet in your scan.
Mind you, I don't have much problem with those if what's under discussion would truly be the same as the "real" thing. Just thought you were more committed to "canon" -- however other posters like to define that.

Here, I have very few reservations about helping people try to make their point.
Let me supply the scan you originally supplied through TurboImageHost AND the identity-confirming one which should follow it:

It would make sense if you ARE using else worlds and the like as the basis for how you think Wolverine's powers work. You seem to believe Wolvy's healing powers not only repair damage but also PREVENT damage.
That would seem to be almost perfectly in line with what I stumbled across here:

Wolverine, still with adamantium skeleton, apparently, but with healing factor cancelled ... versus ... Thor.

And here, just to close out the 5 slots TurboImageHost supplies on their initial "basic upload" page, Parker versus Logan. Civvies tiff ...

Your therapist cancelled your meeting again or what?

If so, make use of that time and read this stuff you're trying to discuss.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
She broke her hand and Logan was fine.

Again, try reading comics you're posting scans from.

Don't know about broke, but one issue I KNOW we're having now is that you don't realize when I'm addressing a specific sub-point with a poster,
versus answering to the general main point of the thread starter.

I pointedly directed the scans you just showed to DarkSaint.

He showed J. Jonah Jameson bloodying Spider-Man's lips with a punch, the implication being if Spider-Man bleeds when struck by a 50+ year old man, a hard strike by Wolverine should CERTAINLY put him down.
I showed Karen bloodying Wolverine's lips with a punch, some random WOMAN who looks perhaps 40 years +, to show what a fallacy that kind of thinking is.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Correct me if I'm wrong, but, isn't that from an alt future type story where a Unicron/Apokolips -type Dr. Doom Warworld is about to destroy the planet?
I recognize the "all-destroying" Phoenix Bullet in your scan.
Mind you, I don't have much problem with those if what's under discussion would truly be the same as the "real" thing. Just thought you were more committed to "canon" -- however other posters like to define that.

Here, I have very few reservations about helping people try to make their point.
Let me supply the scan you originally supplied through TurboImageHost AND the identity-confirming one which should follow it:

It would make sense if you ARE using else worlds and the like as the basis for how you think Wolverine's powers work. You seem to believe Wolvy's healing powers not only repair damage but also PREVENT damage.
That would seem to be almost perfectly in line with what I stumbled across here:

Astonishing Spider-Man and Wolverine took the 616 characters and sent them on a time traveling adventure. The feats they performed were canon, and so long as they weren't using things like Phoenix force or time diamonds, are totally applicable here.

Originally posted by Ize19

I can understand the claws that were stabbing Hulk's arm being stuck, but the claws that were slashing? How does it make sense that an arm can get stuck so that it repeatedly slashes Hulks arm? And it's not the same slash, it's at different angles, and targeting different parts of Hulk's arm. Yes, he's fighting with his eyes closed, not that difficult when the Hulk is literally holding him so that he remains within striking distance. Ok, so his body is twisting, that doesn't explain why he's still landing shots, instead of his hands falling back as they do once he starts to lose consciousness.

No, we saw Superior Spider-Man taking Wolverine off guard, and slamming the back of his head into the ground. He was just temporarily incapacitated, by the next page he had recovered enough to outspeed Spidey's spider sense enhanced reflexes, and trap him at claw point.

I'll need to see these scans, happy to provide the Roughhouse scans in return. Just based on this description, if he was really hitting Spidey too fast for Spider-man to react to, then it's probable he was trading power in for speed. Not something he'll have to do in this headbutt contest. Not to mention, Spider-man will be his own worst enemy, after all, the harder he hits Wolverine's forehead with his, the harder the adamantium will be impacting him. I'll take Wolverine's healing and durabiltiy over Spider-man's durability any day.

if you look at the scans, the slashing claws are stuck in the same position. you dont see the third claw. basically the third claw is stuck in his arm in a slashing position that didnt end. you can clearly see that its the same slash , located in the same direction. one of the scans shows it higher than the other bad thats a drawing thing. sometimes the drawing is not perfect and consistant with the intentions.

he is not landing shots. he is stuck in hulks arm. after the third and fourth panel punch his claws are released and he is twisting with the punch causing his claws to slash hulks arm. however its not wolverine who does it but its simply his body twisting because of the punch. i dont believe wolverine is able to fight, his eyes are closed and you can clearly see he is out and just getting beat up.

but the point is spiderman did take him out. also, as pointed out, wolverine didnt face someone like spiderman before who tries WWH tactic on him. repeteadly hitting him in the head non stop. i do believe spiderman has the striking power to cause him the same brain damage since again, there is no proof that it takes the minimum of WWH striking power in order to achieve the outcome.

sure no problem will look for them and post. and i repsect your opinion that spidermans durability will give up first. thats the thing we dont know the outcome and can only speculate based on feats and abilities. can actually go the other way of spiderman getting knocked out first.

Originally posted by Dareangel
if you look at the scans, the slashing claws are stuck in the same position. you dont see the third claw. basically the third claw is stuck in his arm in a slashing position that didnt end. you can clearly see that its the same slash , located in the same direction. one of the scans shows it higher than the other bad thats a drawing thing. sometimes the drawing is not perfect and consistant with the intentions.

he is not landing shots. he is stuck in hulks arm. after the third and fourth panel punch his claws are released and he is twisting with the punch causing his claws to slash hulks arm. however its not wolverine who does it but its simply his body twisting because of the punch. i dont believe wolverine is able to fight, his eyes are closed and you can clearly see he is out and just getting beat up

I'm sorry, you're just wrong. Zoom in on the scans DarkSaint posted, you can see all three claws, every time. So your position is, Wolverine is the single greatest unconscious fighter of all time, and would have beaten Thor, Hercules, or the Thing, in his sleep, if they tried the Hulk's tactic? Lol. You can see his expression change, the angle of his shots change, you see motion lines every time he throws a slash, but it's all due to puppet master WWH? This is called denial..

but the point is spiderman did take him out. also, as pointed out, wolverine didnt face someone like spiderman before who tries WWH tactic on him. repeteadly hitting him in the head non stop. i do believe spiderman has the striking power to cause him the same brain damage since again, there is no proof that it takes the minimum of WWH striking power in order to achieve the outcome.

No, someone else in Spider-Man's body took him off guard, and incapacitated him temporarily. He was fine, and able to turn the tables, within moments. Actually, Spider-Man has done just that, in the cemetery, and not only did he not knock him out, he couldn't get him to stop smiling.

sure no problem will look for them and post. and i repsect your opinion that spidermans durability will give up first. thats the thing we dont know the outcome and can only speculate based on feats and abilities. can actually go the other way of spiderman getting knocked out first.

Thanks, I'd appreciate it. Yeah, it's all just speculation, but both common sense and the evidence happen to agree here, and it seems pretty clear cut. Still, this has been fun, thanks.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Unless you're telling me Wolverine also lacks both of those, you're not saying very much. Note that someone giving him a bloody lip does nothing to preclude healing factors or adamantium.

And if it was just "on me" Phil wouldn't have thought it bad enough to call you on it. He and I don't agree on much of anything that I can recognize.

Except bloodying his lip, is all fine and dandy...but with a HF backing him up, he will be as fresh as a daisy afterwards.

As seen when SPIDERMAN tried punching Wolverine with enough force to wreck cars. All HE did was smile back at Spidey.

Originally posted by Ize19

Not knocked out, only lasted due to scrambling of mindcontrol ...

Not knocked out, just temporarily incapacitated.
On the next page, he gets up, and traps him faster than Ock can react to, even while utilizing his spider sense ...

No, we saw Superior Spider-Man taking Wolverine off guard, and slamming the back of his head into the ground. He was just temporarily incapacitated, by the next page he had recovered enough to outspeed Spidey's spider sense enhanced reflexes, and trap him at claw point.

It might be a good idea to:

a) review what the original poster (OP) of this thread actually asked for

and

b) take a look at and/or define what meets the definition of "knockout".

For the first, we have to examine what Dareangel actually wrote, which is the following:

Originally posted by Dareangel
its spidy and wolverine headbutting each other forehead against forehead until someone goes down. who will win this headbutt fest

That's what he wrote. Until someone goes down, presumably from being dazed and/or temporarily losing consciousness. Technically, just striking hard enough to physically force the opponent's body to the floor might win with the language used above, but that doesn't seem in the spirit of Dareangel's question, and that's not the stance I've been taking, either.

I've been approaching this from the stance of:

Can opponent A get the advantage over opponent B to the extent that, per the OP's initial guidelines, a ref would award a knockout to opponent A in a sanctioned bout? Or, if this were unsanctioned and comic book "real world", would the knockout scored by opponent A be enough to allow the performance of a useful practical action that would meet their goal? Or such that a 2nd blow would obviously do MORE than the OP asked for, and keep opponent B down far LONGER than what is necessary to earn a knockout decision in a boxing match?

So that's the working definition I've been going by.
You can pooh-pooh all you want, indeed Dareangel himself may contradict what he wrote now and effectively torpedo his thread, but every time I've responded to the main point, it's met the specs he originally outlined.

To illustrate the above, as I proposed we take a LOOK at what constitutes a knockout for most objective and reasonable people, click the following:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LdOcGobOD2Y

If YouTube does what YouTube does, and eventually makes that link worthless, look up a clip of, and/or read about James Thunder's match against Crawford Grimsley.

Now that's a real world example, and meets the specs of the language of the opening post of this thread, and is formally classed as a knockout in a realm which also has a designation for slightly lesser or potentially controversial wins called TKOs.

Now let's look at a comic book example. I've given this before:

(The above is Spider-Man versus Shocker, 1966.)