Rebels Maul vs Shaak Ti

Originally posted by Selenial
The story group decides what is and is not canon. They (notice the plural here) go through published and soon to be published material and determine what is canon and what needs to be removed. Even as a body, they do not themselves create canon material.

Ergo, a statement from a member of the story group is not canon, unless their statement is backed up by a canon source. They determine what sources are and are not canon, they themselves are not a canon source. They also must work as a group, not as a singular individual, so taking a single member of the Story Group's comment as canon is not viable at all.

And given that like I said, Pablo has a segment in Rebels Recon in which he answers questions regarding continuity, in an official capacity, he's evidently in a position to act as a spokesperson.

And yes, his rank is relevant, I'd lend more weight to Chee than to Hidalgo, as Chee is quite clearly the ranking member of the story group.

EDIT: I tell a lie, as of SWC 2016 he's been titled as a "Creative Executive", so I suppose that gives him executive authority over creative content. 😂

At the end of the day, all Hidalgo's comment can be taken to mean by those who take his word as gospel, is that as it stands in current canon material, Rebels is Vader's prime. Should a new novel be released however that comes after Rebels and features Vader, said position would have to have been re-evaluated by the Story Group, and his previous statements should be rendered beyond irrelevant.

This differs entirely from a Canon quote, which would exist in the mythos until explicitly retconned.

As a side note, Hidalgo's quote shouldn't be taken (even by you) to apply to Composite Vader, as numerous individuals have tried to do over the past few weeks. Canon takes precedence, sure, but Hidalgo's quote is not literally Canon, and several quotes exist in Legends claiming Vader constantly improved.

Just a reminder, you've still yet to explain what Rebels being Vader's prime actually does for him in Current Canon.

On the other hand yes, Vader being in his prime in Rebels is Canon with a capital C.

Originally posted by Selenial
Well, thanks for the help in rendering his opinion beyond worthless, then.

He has substantial amounts of time to peruse a source before approving it, and still cannot justify or stand behind one of the conclusions made in it? That means he either has no authority to change things in the Story Group, or that he deems his own opinion less than that of "experts", or that he put so little effort into the published material that he didn't spot it.

None of which bode well for taking his word as gospel 🙂

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Your conclusion doesn't follow on from your point, no new content has been created here. Pablo has merely clarified on when Vader's prime is, which, as a member of Story Group that determines Canon and it's direction, he has the authority to do. This is very simple and easy to grasp. That said your assessment is incorrect, the Story Group do indeed have the capacity to develop new continuity, entirely on their own, and have done already for TFA, and elsewhere. So this is well within Pablo's capacity to do.

Source that the Story Group themselves wrote the creation of the Republic, Leia's issues with the Senate etc?

And given that like I said, Pablo has a segment in Rebels Recon in which he answers questions regarding continuity, in an official capacity, he's evidently in a position to act as a spokesperson.

I'm fully aware of Rebels Recon, that's where this quote originates. All they talk of in that show is their intention behind a variety of events in the show. Speaking in an official capacity on a panel does not make something Canon.

Or do you fully accept that in the Legends continuity Vitiate is the most powerful Sith Lord? Bioware writers have said as much during live-streamed panels, their words are Out of Universe and not based on time zones. They dictate what is and is not legends canon for the SWTOR universe, it's effectively the same thing, you just disagree so are surely about to perform some staggering mental gymnastics to make them look different 🙂

Erm no? The story group do not react to developments in continuity, they determine them. How have you not grasped this? In which respect they have determined that as of Rebels, Vader is in his prime, ergo, all future continuity will follow in that vein, unless they decide otherwise.

No, they react to them, or they'd be the only authors of anything in Star Wars. When Karpyshyn wrote Dromund Kaas, he wrote it how he wished to write it. Leland Chee would then go over what he had written and affirm whether or not that fit with the continuity, and would make cuts accordingly. There's no evidence the new system works any differently. Authors have access to what is and is not canon, they are not then told what to make canon, they are the writers, the Story Group are the proofreaders.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Really out doing yourself here with the nonsense conjecture. 😂

If you have another explanation, please share 🙂

So far, you're really "out doing yourself here" with your usual complete avoidance of the appropriate area of discussion. I asked you in the original post what Rebels being Vader's prime actually did for him, you ignored it, I asked you again and you, yet again, ignored it.

It seems you had genuinely no argument to begin with, and are only nitpicking a singular sentence because even you are aware of how weak your argument is ✅

Originally posted by Selenial
Source that the Story Group themselves wrote the creation of the Republic, Leia's issues with the Senate etc?

I'm fully aware of Rebels Recon, that's where this quote originates. All they talk of in that show is their intention behind a variety of events in the show. Speaking in an official capacity on a panel does not make something Canon.

Or do you fully accept that in the Legends continuity Vitiate is the most powerful Sith Lord? Bioware writers have said as much during live-streamed panels, their words are Out of Universe and not based on time zones. They dictate what is and is not legends canon for the SWTOR universe, it's effectively the same thing, you just disagree so are surely about to perform some staggering mental gymnastics to make them look different 🙂

No, they react to them, or they'd be the only authors of anything in Star Wars. When Karpyshyn wrote Dromund Kaas, he wrote it how he wished to write it. Leland Chee would then go over what he had written and affirm whether or not that fit with the continuity, and would make cuts accordingly. There's no evidence the new system works any differently. Authors have access to what is and is not canon, they are not then told what to make canon, they are the writers, the Story Group are the proofreaders.

No that is not how it works, the writers come to them, with story propositions, and the Story Group guides the process, that is how it works now. That is the whole point of the Story Group you utter imbecile. Even the director of Rogue One had to report to them.

If you have another explanation, please share 🙂

1. Pablo Hidalgo is a member of the Lucasfilm Story Group, and in fact a Creative Executive, which have the authority to determine Canon.

2. The Head-to-Head series represent what if scenarios and therefore are not part of continuity.

3. The outcomes of the Head-to-Head series do not represent Pablo's views.

So far, you're really "out doing yourself here" with your usual complete avoidance of the appropriate area of discussion. I asked you in the original post what Rebels being Vader's prime actually did for him, you ignored it, I asked you again and you, yet again, ignored it.

It seems you had genuinely no argument to begin with, and are only nitpicking a singular sentence because even you are aware of how weak your argument is ✅

Your tears taste saltier than usual my darling, though perhaps that's due to the fact this debate loosely involves Ahsoka. I'll excuse your rampant attempts to hide your flawed arguments through abusive language because of this, I'm fully aware that when it comes to Ahsoka you're less than stable 🙂

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I never said they wrote the plot you numpty, but yes, they were involved, like in defining how Starkiller Base worked.

Actually, you did:
"he Story Group do indeed have the capacity to develop new continuity, entirely on their own, and have done already for TFA"

Defining how Starkiller base works is different to labelling Darth Vader as in his prime, him being in his prime is a "plot point", as it pertains to his character. Clarifying scientific details of an already established premise is entirely different. In all likelihood, the details of Starkiller Base were fleshed out long before the Story Group commented on it, they are merely the ones who can reference previous continuity and see established Canon that the masses cannot.

Obviously you're not otherwise you'd know that at the end of Rebels Recon, Pablo answers general questions concerning continuity, not necessarily about the episode or even specifically about the show. Much like Leland Chee has in the past before the reboot. And yes, that stuff is Canon. Try also to understand that Pablo Hidalgo is not Dave Filoni, he is not a member of the Rebels creative team, he is there to represent the Story Group.

"And yes, that stuff is Canon".

Give me a quote, you're legitimately just basing an entirely new argument around an already disputed fact. That doesn't make the thing we're disputing any less factual facepalm

Are any of the BioWare writers members of the Lucasfilm Story Group, or any kind of equivalent? Good Lord, why do you ask these stupid questions?

What a phenomenal strawman you have there 🙂

The Lucasfilm Story Group was not invented when these writers made these claims. They served the role that the Story Group serves now, and they made their comments in an official capacity. Their claims have no stake in Canon, but by your truly incredible logic, should be taken as perfectly valid in the Legends continuity.

No that is not how it works, the writers come to them, with story propositions, and the Story Group guides the process, that is how it works now. That is the whole point of the Story Group you utter imbecile. Even the director of Rogue One had to report to them.

Yes, he had to create content and then report to them for clarification. That is exactly what I said. Stop getting tetchy sweetie, this'll all be over soon 🙂

Why? Unlike you I prefer to avoid spewing conjecture and instead deal with the facts presented which are:

1. Pablo Hidalgo is a member of the Lucasfilm Story Group, and in fact a Creative Executive, which have the authority to determine Canon.

2. The Head-to-Head series represent what if scenarios and therefore are not part of continuity.

3. The outcomes of the Head-to-Head series do not represent Pablo's views.

Yes he has the authority to determine what's canon, when he is acting as part of the Lucasfilm Story Group. The Head to Head series are still based on canon, if their conclusions were invalid, Pablo should be rewriting them. I could similarly turn around to you, if your thinking was correct, and claim that since Darth Vader's prime is "not part of the continuity" he has no authority to speak on it 😕

Originally posted by Selenial
Anything other than non canon author statements to back that up?

Even so, what feats. All Canon Vader has that's great in duelling is beating Luke, whose only strong feat is being a match for Vader mmm

Hell, Vader's best feat might actually just be matching Kenobi, and even that could be put down to Kenobi being a Soresu duellist 😱

I know this is a response to Beni here, but the fact that "it can be put down to Kenobi being a Soresu duelist" is a point in favour of Vader, not against him.

No, unless you believe quotes which have literally no canon authority. Doesn't take much to notice Maul atrophied.

Apart from some circumstantial low showings, not really. Maul's evidently within range of Vader, as his performance against Ahsoka and Ahsoka's subsequent performance against Vader shows. Even if he did decline it wouldn't be by much.

What's your proof that he'd shame Shaak? I don't buy it. TFU Vader has superior feats to his Canon self at this point in time, and Galen did significantly better than Ahsoka, because, you know, he actually won. Even if you think Marek improved, there's not much to suggest his blade skill increased significantly after fighting Shaak (who was considered strong enough to be his final test). I'll accept that his ability to actually control his force powers did, however.

Unless I'm mistaken, Galen claims to have improved with every mission and grows stronger once he commits himself to the light side over the dark (which of course has historical basis). So that's a considerable growth.

So if she can effectively out-duel a duelist who mildly improved, then butchered a stronger Vader than the Canon one..... why would Canon Vader shame her? mmm

Galen "butchered" a Vader that was fighting recklessly and not to the best of his ability, with the aid of Dun Moch that managed to unsettle Vader completely. By contrast, Vader rather easily outdueled Galen's clone in TFU II, with said clone not only logically but factually possessing the fighting skills of his original host.

Vader's factually the strongest duelist in the galaxy at the time, which makes it clear that he's above Shaak, or Galen, for that matter. As for why I have Canon Vader over TFU Vader, again, unless I'm mistaken, both Canon and Legends are available here, with Canon technically taking precedence. Therefore, Vader's quote of supremacy in Canon as of Rebels applies over any of his quotes in Legends. Or in other words, he's stronger than his prime in Legends; all feats and accolades are available. At least, that's certainly how the OP intends it, and I'll respect that because I'm not particularly interested in a prolonged argument over what's canon or not.

Seems like pretty trash tier logic Nova, though that seems par for the course recently.

I tend to ignore these sorts of statements when anyone's favoured character is a point of the discussion.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I know this is a response to Beni here, but the fact that "it can be put down to Kenobi being a Soresu duelist" is a point in favour of Vader, not against him.

Debatable, one could argue that if Kenobi was a Juyo practitioner in as good sted, he'd have been victorious. Two good Soresu duelists should theoretically stalemate for a long time.

Apart from some circumstantial low showings, not really. Maul's evidently within range of Vader, as his performance against Ahsoka and Ahsoka's subsequent performance against Vader shows. Even if he did decline it wouldn't be by much.

Power scaling trains like that do not work. Otherwise, Kanan is "evidently within range of Vader". 'Circumstantial' doesn't exist in Star Wars, Maul had clearly regressed, if he had progressed as a fighter he would not have attempted to kill Kenobi with the same move-set he used against Qui-Gon. If he himself thinks his TPM incarnation was his strongest, it's pretty clear that Rebels is not.

Unless I'm mistaken, Galen claims to have improved with every mission and grows stronger once he commits himself to the light side over the dark (which of course has historical basis). So that's a considerable growth.

Shaak was his last mission though. Yes he grows stronger as a Force User, I agree with that. Shaak isn't a Galen level force user, so obviously he grows after being fairly evenly matched with her. Saber wise however, there's little indication of substantial growth.

Galen "butchered" a Vader that was fighting recklessly and not to the best of his ability, with the aid of Dun Moch that managed to unsettle Vader completely. By contrast, Vader rather easily outdueled Galen's clone in TFU II, with said clone not only logically but factually possessing the fighting skills of his original host.

That was simply a part of that Vader's fighting style, he was reckless for a long time. Dun Moch also didn't play a huge role in the fight, Vader was clearly outmatched. You'll have to show me the areas in which Vader outdueled Galen's clone 'easily' though. Not to mention TFU II takes place nearly 3 years after the first, during which Vader would evidently have been improving his skills, and during which Vader had ample sparring partners in the Clones of Starkiller. Quite easy to learn to beat someone who you've faced a thousand times, when they've fought you once...

Vader's factually the strongest duelist in the galaxy at the time, which makes it clear that he's above Shaak, or Galen, for that matter. As for why I have Canon Vader over TFU Vader, again, unless I'm mistaken, both Canon and Legends are available here, with Canon technically taking precedence. Therefore, Vader's quote of supremacy in Canon as of Rebels applies over any of his quotes in Legends. Or in other words, he's stronger than his prime in Legends; all feats and accolades are available. At least, that's certainly how the OP intends it, and I'll respect that because I'm not particularly interested in a prolonged argument over what's canon or not.

I don't disagree that Vader's above them. And no, 'both Canon and Legends' are not available, because we are discussing the power scaling from a Legends Shaak Ti or from a Canon Maul. Maul's Legends and Canon feats are Valid, yes, same with Shaak Ti's, but you cannot attempt to combine Vader together and scale them both from the same beast. Canon Vader and Legends Vader are not the same. Ti's placement can not in any way come from Canon Vader, because that's not the story she was written in. She's dead in Canon at that point, how do you make a composite Ti out of that?

Composite characters are excuses for people to cherry-pick the best quotes. I can understand composite if the versus thread involves them, sure, but you can't scale other characters off them, that simply doesn't work.

If you did, and you took the Rebels quote above the ROTJ Novel etc, then Galen Marek's standing in the mythos vastly increases, as he would have essentially beaten the strongest Darth Vader. He did not, Legends Vader improved afterwards, so you can't start making grandiose claims about Marek's ability based off another Continuity's ranking of Vader. Canon and Legends should be separated in this regard...

I tend to ignore these sorts of statements when anyone's favoured character is a point of the discussion.

Shaak isn't even in my top 5, take it however you want.

Originally posted by Selenial
Debatable, one could argue that if Kenobi was a Juyo practitioner in as good sted, he'd have been victorious. Two good Soresu duelists should theoretically stalemate for a long time.

Except Vader's factually better per about three quotes, so Obi-Wan wouldn't have been victorious on merit of skill or anything of the sort. And Vader's a Djem So practitioner, not Soresu. Obi-Wan's form being designed to prolong engagements and Vader fighting more cautiously would only serve to extend the fight, not lessen it. So again, a mark for Vader, not against him.

Power scaling trains like that do not work. Otherwise, Kanan is "evidently within range of Vader". 'Circumstantial' doesn't exist in Star Wars, Maul had clearly regressed, if he had progressed as a fighter he would not have attempted to kill Kenobi with the same move-set he used against Qui-Gon. If he himself thinks his TPM incarnation was his strongest, it's pretty clear that Rebels is not.

Circumstances dictate the majority of fights in Star Wars. The reality is, as many authors have put to us, that on any given day, any character can beat another. In other words, even established hierarchies can be effectively undermined on the whim of an author. Such is the nature of fiction.

That doesn't mean, however, that we can simply ignore said hierarchies; the nature of the battles forums is that we try to adhere to them as much as possible and ignore PIS. That's what I'm doing here by disregarding Kanan's showing.

And I'm not seeing any indication of Maul thinking that his TPM incarnation is strongest. He attempted the Qui-Gon attack because he recognized Obi-Wan's form as being susceptible to it; with Obi-Wan of course not actually fighting in Qui-Gon's style but simply using that stance to lure Maul into such an attack. That he doesn't make use of that attack in other situations is proof that it's circumstantial as opposed to him generally thinking of TPM Maul as superior to himself.

Filoni's comments come from Rebel Recon. Pretty sure that's canon, but either way, in the absence of compelling evidence of otherwise, we can pretty safely run off that.

Shaak was his last mission though. Yes he grows stronger as a Force User, I agree with that. Shaak isn't a Galen level force user, so obviously he grows after being fairly evenly matched with her. Saber wise however, there's little indication of substantial growth.

Well, one's connection to the Force is part of that; if your connection to the Force grows stronger then so will your skills. And Galen does note his skills increased after Nar Shaddaa. You're right in that nothing explicitly indicates he grew substantially, although historically, those that abandon the dark side to join the light tend to do so.

That was simply a part of that Vader's fighting style, he was reckless for a long time. Dun Moch also didn't play a huge role in the fight, Vader was clearly outmatched. You'll have to show me the areas in which Vader outdueled Galen's clone 'easily' though. Not to mention TFU II takes place nearly 3 years after the first, during which Vader would evidently have been improving his skills, and during which Vader had ample sparring partners in the Clones of Starkiller. Quite easy to learn to beat someone who you've faced a thousand times, when they've fought you once...

Where did you get three years from? It's less than a year apart - 1BBY vs 2BBY (Wookieepedia claims that TFU goes up to 1BBY but I'm not sure what source that's from).

I don't disagree that Vader's above them. And no, 'both Canon and Legends' are not available, because we are discussing the power scaling from a Legends Shaak Ti or from a Canon Maul. Maul's Legends and Canon feats are Valid, yes, same with Shaak Ti's, but you cannot attempt to combine Vader together and scale them both from the same beast. Canon Vader and Legends Vader are not the same. Ti's placement can not in any way come from Canon Vader, because that's not the story she was written in. She's dead in Canon at that point, how do you make a composite Ti out of that?

Composite characters are excuses for people to cherry-pick the best quotes. I can understand composite if the versus thread involves them, sure, but you can't scale other characters off them, that simply doesn't work.

If you did, and you took the Rebels quote above the ROTJ Novel etc, then Galen Marek's standing in the mythos vastly increases, as he would have essentially beaten the strongest Darth Vader. He did not, Legends Vader improved afterwards, so you can't start making grandiose claims about Marek's ability based off another Continuity's ranking of Vader. Canon and Legends should be separated in this regard...

Well, that's part of the mess of mixing and matching Canon and Legends that we've fallen into. But I actually agree; keeping them distinct is much simpler, but that also makes them all the more difficult to compare. So does the fact that Canon characters are just so lacking in exploration. So we'd be better off not making such a comparison to begin with.

In the event that we're isolating the two, I'm unfortunately not completely up to date with Canon Vader. Didn't he beat Commander Karbin, someone who was supposed to be a stronger version of Grievous, essentially? Of course, it helps that this Maul is a stronger version than the one that matched Grievous in SoD #1 and SoD #4, and managed to fend off Mace Windu (an 8 bordering on a 9) whilst incapacitating Aayla Secura in SoD #3. To my knowledge, Qui-Gon has nothing in Canon, so Maul's TPM feats can't be accurately judged. But there's always his TCW showings.

Either way, if Rebels Maul is stronger than his previous incarnations, then he's definitely an 8 since his TPM incarnation alone was 8. Whereas Legends Vader is likely a 7; Ben Kenobi almost certainly was given his massive atrophy between RotS and ANH. And Shaak's below that. So Maul still wins.

Shaak isn't even in my top 5, take it however you want.

That's what AP said about Kun, lol.

Originally posted by Selenial
Your tears taste saltier than usual my darling, though perhaps that's due to the fact this debate loosely involves Ahsoka. I'll excuse your rampant attempts to hide your flawed arguments through abusive language because of this, I'm fully aware that when it comes to Ahsoka you're less than stable 🙂

Actually, you did:
"The Story Group do indeed have the capacity to develop new continuity, entirely on their own, and have done already for TFA"

Defining how Starkiller base works is different to labelling Darth Vader as in his prime, him being in his prime is a "plot point", as it pertains to his character. Clarifying scientific details of an already established premise is entirely different. In all likelihood, the details of Starkiller Base were fleshed out long before the Story Group commented on it, they are merely the ones who can reference previous continuity and see established Canon that the masses cannot.

http://uproxx.com/hitfix/291-days-until-star-wars-even-lucasfilm-is-trying-to-figure-out-how-starkiller-base-works/
http://steelewars.com/lucasfilms-pablo-hidalgo-confirms-starkiller-could-move/

Peruse at your leisure.

"And yes, that stuff is Canon".

Give me a quote, you're legitimately just basing an entirely new argument around an already disputed fact. That doesn't make the thing we're disputing any less factual facepalm

My point here is that Pablo is acting as a spokeperson in that regard, and indeed in an official capacity. Try to keep up.

What a phenomenal strawman you have there 🙂

The Lucasfilm Story Group was not invented when these writers made these claims. They served the role that the Story Group serves now, and they made their comments in an official capacity. Their claims have no stake in Canon, but by your truly incredible logic, should be taken as perfectly valid in the Legends continuity.

Yes, he had to create content and then report to them for clarification. That is exactly what I said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvT2F1j-SvA&t=14m53s

i.e. if its been established by the Story Group that Rebels is Vader's prime, that gets added to a framework which all future Vader content it's ensured aligns with. Again, very simple, basic stuff.

Stop getting tetchy sweetie, this'll all be over soon 🙂

That's some pretty phenomenal irony. Not once has anyone ever said Pablo's views are canon, you are attempting to prove as much based on a wealth of evidence that supposedly points towards him being a Canon source... sounds a lot like conjecture buddy, even if you think it's valid.

Yes he has the authority to determine what's canon, when he is acting as part of the Lucasfilm Story Group.

The Head to Head series are still based on canon, if their conclusions were invalid, Pablo should be rewriting them. I could similarly turn around to you, if your thinking was correct, and claim that since Darth Vader's prime is "not part of the continuity" he has no authority to speak on it 😕

How the nature of Darth Vader's character exists too outside of continuity is beyond me, please do your best to explain, and I'll do my best not to contract any more strains of cancer.

Originally posted by Selenial
Well, thanks for the help in rendering his opinion beyond worthless, then.

He has substantial amounts of time to peruse a source before approving it, and still cannot justify or stand behind one of the conclusions made in it? That means he either has no authority to change things in the Story Group, or that he deems his own opinion less than that of "experts", or that he put so little effort into the published material that he didn't spot it.

None of which bode well for taking his word as gospel 🙂

Damn, Sel reverse raping Beni. 😂

Huh? I thought I was supposed to be the salty one darling.

I'm not salty, babe.

I'm being the same dick I've always been. 🙂

I remember a time when Beni also didn't take the Hidalgo quote seriously. That was before the Assoka duel tho, interestingly.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
interestingly.

Not really. 🙂

I do agree with Beni, tho.

I remembur when zoltan used to be worth my time, people change. 🙁

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I'm not salty, babe.

I'm being the same dick I've always been. 🙂

I remember a time when you weren't constantly choking on salt generated by Sel...lel just kidding. It was always like that.

You misspelt cancer. 🙂

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You misspelt cancer. 🙂

The context of the Vader in his Prime quote could have easily been referring to his level of evilness.

And even if it refers to his power level, there's nothing to say he degraded later (aside from the fact he was conflicted whilst fighting Luke in ROTJ.