Originally posted by Beniboybling
That said, assuming each generation of Banite Sith grew in power by 5%, the last Sith in the Line would be 4+ times more powerful than Bane, a 7.5% increase, 8, 9 times more powerful, a 10% increase, 17 times. I consider these all to be reasonable figures considering Bane was ultimately a knat in comparison to Palpatine's power.
That's clinically retarded, but the rest of it is right I guess mmm
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Depends on what falls under power... That's the whole point of discussion
In this case, it'd be actual Force power seeing as how it's based on the knowledge of the Dark Side. Power isn't really manipulation; that's more a skill. I suppose power can mean political control, but until Palpatine, none of them could gain that. Then there's these quotes:
"For a thousand years we continued to follow Bane's Rule of Two, existing in the shadows, biding our time, growing in power, feeding our hatred."
-- Star Wars Insider #88: Heritage of the Sith
"Ultimately, Bane's plan produced more powerful Sith Lords with each generation."
-- The Force and Destiny
Fairly self evident.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Finally there is left little room for intepretation when it comes to the statements in question, specifically:
Taken from Episode 1: The Phantom Menace Scrapbook
For a millennium, the Sith maintained the order in secrecy, passing down their evil heritage. As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation.Is quite clearly referring to Force ability, their increased power being correlated with their "knowledge of the dark side" makes this indisputable. Alternative readings will only run afoul of mental gymnastics if not willfully induced stupidity. DD9's assertion that it refers to them becoming more smart at being evil schemers can be dismissed as the ramblings of an egit. Sidious describing himself as a recipient of Bane's power being dine as an annotation from the Book of Sith extract from above, namely, Bane's treatise on the Force and it's nature, which is, FYI: the true power of the Sith, obviously. Nor is knowledge of the dark side knowledge of cunning or manipulation, but the dark side.
Why is it that "powers" in this context can't literally be in reference to powers, i.e. as they gained dark side knowledge they acquired new abilities and methods to use the dark side to achieve their ends? This is a far more straightforward interpretation of the quote than yours, as that is what happens directly and necessarily when knowledge increases, and obviously with a greater arsenal of darkside techniques their capabilities would naturally be increased.
The relation between darkside knowledge and power levels is far looser by comparison. Your interpretation is also far less consistent with what we've seen these various characters actually demonstrate.
Not to mention, even if your interpretation was the best one, it wouldn't make it factual.
Until you guys bring something that's genuinely a fact to the table, I think we can label this fanon.
Originally posted by S W LeGenDIt is? Why is it you've decided to reduce this to the number of powers alone as opposed to potency of the preexisting and new powers they learned also? Because I'm not seeing any basis for doing that. mmm
Why is it that "powers" in this context can't literally be in reference to powers, i.e. as they gained dark side knowledge they acquired new abilities and methods to use the dark side to achieve their ends? This is a far more straightforward interpretation of the quote than yours, as that is what happens directly and necessarily when knowledge increases, and obviously with a greater arsenal of darkside techniques their capabilities would naturally be increased.The relation between darkside knowledge and power levels is far looser by comparison. Your interpretation is also far less consistent with what we've seen these various characters actually demonstrate.
Not to mention, even if your interpretation was the best one, it wouldn't make it factual.
Until you guys bring something that's genuinely a fact to the table, I think we can label this fanon.
But no the correlation is entirely direct, by gaining a greater understanding of the dark side, one becomes more powerful, and this is reflected at every level of lore and to my knowledge, with no exceptions.
Well the main point I was making is that neither interpretation is factual.
It might be when you're talking about a single person, but not when you're talking about successive generations, as gains from increased knowledge can be offset by other things, such as a weaker connection to the Force from successive members.
Originally posted by S W LeGenDYour point seems to be that because there exists an alternative reading it's invalid, however that argument only works if the alternative reading make sense, and it doesn't. Besides being unwarranted by the general terms of the statement (which warrant a general reading), it's grammatically clunky (it should read number of powers increasing) and semantically redundant (it's already implicit that an expanded knowledge of the dark side would grant expanded techniques.) Or simply put, as far as straightforward interpretations go, this is not it.
Well the main point I was making is that neither interpretation is factual.
It might be when you're talking about a single person, but not when you're talking about successive generations, as gains from increased knowledge can be offset by other things, such as a weaker connection to the Force from successive members.The Sith archives were passed down through the generations, so each student would benefit from a greater and greater repository of knowledge and understanding of the dark side in general.
Originally posted by S W LeGenDJoin DD9 in the corner then.
Most importantly I don't believe the interpretation made by most in this thread fits with Bane's intentions and expectations at all, though it has been a while since I've read the books and I can't really be bothered to dig out the quotes.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Your point seems to be that because there exists an alternative reading it's invalid, however that argument only works if the alternative reading make sense, and it doesn't. Besides being unwarranted by the general terms of the statement (which warrant a general reading), it's grammatically clunky (it should read number of powers increasing) and semantically redundant (it's already implicit that an expanded knowledge of the dark side would grant expanded techniques.) Or simply put, as far as straightforward interpretations go, this is not it.
I might have been a little unclear; what I meant was that you could interpet the statement as saying that with their increased knowledge of the darkside, their powers increased, in the sense that their increased arsenal of techniques would have made them more capable at achieving their ends. I wasn't saying that you should interpret it as saying that as their knowledge increased, the number of powers they knew increased.
The Sith archives were passed down through the generations, so each student would benefit from a greater and greater repository of knowledge and understanding of the dark side in general.
I'm not sure how this responds to what I was saying.
Originally posted by S W LeGenDI know what you said lol, my response is the same.
I might have been a little unclear; what I meant was that you could interpet the statement as saying that with their increased knowledge of the darkside, their powers increased, in the sense that their increased arsenal of techniques would have made them more capable at achieving their ends. I wasn't saying that you should interpret it as saying that as their knowledge increased, the number of powers they knew increased.
I'm not sure how this responds to what I was saying.I'm pointing out that because that knowledge was passed down. Each successive student's knowledge of the dark side would be greater than the last. That could easily correlate into greater power.