This argument has gotten a little tedious and I think we've lost sight of our original positions so it might be helpful to go back to that.
My interpretation of the quote is that the Sith's general capabilities in areas such as combat, manipulation, stealth, and other areas relevant to their interests increased with each generation, as they gained knowledge, because of the increased knowledge which lead to them possessing more effective ways of achieving their ends. To keep it short, as their knowledge increased, their capacity to achieve their ends increased.
Are you arguing that my interpretation doesn't make sense, because it would be unnecessary to clarify that their knoweldge lead to increased capabilities, because they would only be seeking knowledge in the first place if it by rule always did?
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nope, it says nothing specific about plans as previously discussed, and in that respect would clarify nothing.
But we're examining whether my interpretation is a sensible reading, so we're assuming that it's talking about capabilities relevant to their plans when analysing it.
And the idea that they were gathering useless knowledge over the course of generations really makes no sense whatsoever.If it was then we should assume knowledge in any form would be useful to them, or that uncovering knowledge in any form would net positive results. Otherwise, they wouldn't be doing it.
This really doesn't follow at all. One of the RoT's definable characteristics is that they're incredibly patient and willing to see results years after carrying out their schemes. It fits completely with their methodology that they would be willing to carry out a plan that has no guarantee of results, provided it could work and that it fits in place of a general strategy that they believe could work.
And their knowledge wouldn't have to have been increasing their capabilities every generation for them to believe that.
Originally posted by S W LeGenDThat increased capability in the subject follows on from knowledge of it, and if here it did not, they would not be gathering it yes.
This argument has gotten a little tedious and I think we've lost sight of our original positions so it might be helpful to go back to that.My interpretation of the quote is that the Sith's general capabilities in areas such as combat, manipulation, stealth, and other areas relevant to their interests increased with each generation, as they gained knowledge, because of the increased knowledge which lead to them possessing more effective ways of achieving their ends. To keep it short, as their knowledge increased, their capacity to achieve their ends increased.
Are you arguing that my interpretation doesn't make sense, because it would be unnecessary to clarify that their knoweldge lead to increased capabilities, because they would only be seeking knowledge in the first place if it by rule always did?
But we're examining whether my interpretation is a sensible reading, so we're assuming that it's talking about capabilities relevant to their plans when analysing it.No just relevant. It needn't apply to their plans to be deemed relevant. There are a number of other ways in which knowledge of the dark side could be considered useful, even if all it amounts to is scholarly interest. None of which is clearly defined by the source.
This really doesn't follow at all. One of the RoT's definable characteristics is that they're incredibly patient and willing to see results years after carrying out their schemes. It fits completely with their methodology that they would be willing to carry out a plan that has no guarantee of results, provided it could work and that it fits in place of a general strategy that they believe could work.The only way gathering any and all knowledge of the dark side could fail to net results is through sheer incompetence lol. Nonetheless its also implicit in and outside of the source material that there efforts were successful, since the Order was itself, a success.And their knowledge wouldn't have to have been increasing their capabilities every generation for them to believe that.
Originally posted by S W LeGenDSource books don't have expiry dates. And no knew information contradicts it. Nonetheless it's reaffirmed by F&D.
The quote's massively out of date anyway.
That increased capability in the subject follows on from knowledge of it, and if here it did not, they would not be gathering it yes.
So even if they had a history of benefitting from such knowledge, but didn't always, they would have no reason to gather it?
Nonetheless its also implicit in and outside of the source material that there efforts were successful, since the Order was itself, a success.
I'm not talking about whether they were in fact successful or not, I'm talking about whether they would in principle have to be, as your claim is that it necessarily follows that they were.
Source books don't have expiry dates. And no knew information contradicts it.
The reality is that they lose their credibility when the universe becomes drastically different from the one they were representing. Works detailing the ROT's philosophy have come out since then that are themselves now massively out of date.
Nonetheless it's reaffirmed by F&D.
Proof that this is Legends canon?
Originally posted by S W LeGenDNo? That's not what I said. I said that if it wasn't proving effective, they wouldn't have done it over millenia.
So even if they had a history of benefitting from such knowledge, but didn't always, they would have no reason to gather it?
I'm not talking about whether they were in fact successful or not, I'm talking about whether they would in principle have to be, as your claim is that it necessarily follows that they were.Well that's the point, there is no logic behind it being unsuccessful. So its redundant to point it out.
The reality is that they lose their credibility when the universe becomes drastically different from the one they were representing. Works detailing the ROT's philosophy have come out since then that are themselves now massively out of date.In what way have things become drastically different? Like I said, there are no contradictions.
Proof that this is Legends canon?It covers Legends material.
1. You clearly did. 😐
2. But there is logic behind it being unsuccessful as I've explained; we were discussing whether in reality it was successful.
3. The amount of EU that's been released since then has been immense, the prequels still hadn't been completed, we've seen a lot of the relevant members of the ROT in action and we've been able to go right into the mind of the person who founded the order. You need to realise that one of the primary purposes of a guidebook is to compile information that already exists. It naturally becomes less credible as time goes by.
4. As well as new canon material in a game that allows its players to play in a world that contains elements of both. By doing that, it essentially creates a world that is distinct from both Legends canon and new canon. The material in an RPG is canon with respect to the world it allows the players to explore, which in this case is not the Legends one.
1. A history of benefitting from gathering knowledge of the dark side but not always is not the same as it being a useless endeavour.
2. And I've explained why that logic is dysfunctional yeah.
3. You haven't explained what's drastically changed that would make this source redundant, expanding on the details of the order is not equivalent to that.
4. The sourcebook acts as a resource on how to intepret Legends & Canon content yeah. Those are the only categories that exist at present.
1. You appeared to be saying that they wouldn't be gathering it at all if increased knowledge as a rule didn't always lead to increased capabilities. But anyway, you surely see that having a history of benefitting from gathered knowledge =/= continuing to benefit from it with each new generation? So it wouldn't be redundant to clarify that in this case it did.
2. Have not..
3. It just wasn't as meaningful a statement before the order had been explored in more detail. It's not that anything contradicts it as it is that there is stuff that questions its significance.
4. The point is that sourcebooks only double up as canon reference books when they are actually based on the canon universe. This one is based on a weird hybrid universe that only exists for the purposes of the game.
Bumping this in light of new (maybe not new but unmentioned at least) evidence supporting the notion that the Banites grew stronger in the Force with each generation. Upon skimming through Darth Plagueis again, I noticed this:
"How often you said that the old order of Bane had ended with the death of your Master. An apprentice no longer needs to be stronger, you told me, merely more clever. The era of keeping score, suspicion and betrayal was over. Strength lies not in the flesh but in the Force."
-Darth Sidious to Darth Plagueis
If the apprentice is stronger than the master, then that implies he/she defeated him/her in single combat, or came stronger regardless even if they did not. Plagueis and Sidious would certainly have a great knowledge of their order's history to accurately make such a statement, don't you agree?
Regardless of how each master met their demise, an array of sources tell us that each generation became more powerful than the last. There's no dispute. You're in denial if you think otherwise.
I mean, the entire premise of the Rule of Two was that the Sith were waiting for one who would be strong enough to bring them back to power, which is exactly who Sidious was (a fact also stated in numerous sources).
Regardless of how each master met their demise, an array of sources tell us that each generation became more powerful than the last.
Sources that aren't LeGenDs-canon or do not necessarily tell us that at all (see my argument with Beni)?
I mean, the entire premise of the Rule of Two was that the Sith were waiting for one who would be strong enough to bring them back to power, which is exactly who Sidious was (a fact also stated in numerous sources).
That really wasn't the premise of the ROT at all but regardless, it would have required a lot more strength to bring them back to power during Bane's time, so that doesn't conclusively prove anything. The strength required to achieve a goal varies with how hard that goal is to achieve at the given time: Sidious was strong enough to achieve that goal partly because the work the ROT had carried out for hundreds of years made it a lot easier for him.