My issues with Banite scaling

Originally posted by MythLord
In this case, it'd be actual Force power seeing as how it's based on the knowledge of the Dark Side. Power isn't really manipulation; that's more a skill. I suppose power can mean political control, but until Palpatine, none of them could gain that. Then there's these quotes:

"For a thousand years we continued to follow Bane's Rule of Two, existing in the shadows, biding our time, growing in power, feeding our hatred."

-- Star Wars Insider #88: Heritage of the Sith

"Ultimately, Bane's plan produced more powerful Sith Lords with each generation."

-- The Force and Destiny

Fairly self evident.

Well I think I should express myself better, I don't believe that each succesive member didn't become more powerful since we've actually seen it with Zannah, Plagueis and Palpatine. However I just don't think that Bane's entire Order should be reduced to "more powahful guys" instead of the cunning, manipulative and intelligent Order it should be.

But my interpretation of the statement is not that they gained more abilities as they gained more knowledge. My interpretation is that their capabilities increased as they gained more knowledge, because they gained more abilities. Gaining more knowledge doesn't mean that their capabilities would necessarily increase, so it's not redundant.

Originally posted by MythLord
The source is actually more-or-less composite.

Has it been officially declared Legends canon?

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
But my interpretation of the statement is not that they gained more abilities as they gained more knowledge. My interpretation is that their capabilities increased as they gained more knowledge, because they gained more abilities. Gaining more knowledge doesn't mean that their capabilities would necessarily increase, so it's not redundant.

Knowledge is a path to power as per Plagueis and if Dooku can still grow after 70 years of near perfect training by exploring new kind of knowledge than I don't think ruling out those Sith to be honest.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Well I think I should express myself better, I don't believe that each succesive member didn't become more powerful since we've actually seen it with Zannah, Plagueis and Palpatine. However I just don't think that Bane's entire Order should be reduced to "more powahful guys" instead of the cunning, manipulative and intelligent Order it should be.

Well, Bane's order isn't just Sith getting more and more uber stronk as the ages pass; they're increasing their knowledge, creating their own techniques, seeding themselves into the galaxy undetected and becoming more intelligent/cunning throughout the experience.

They are indeed improving in many facets, but Force power is one of those facets.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
Has it been officially declared Legends canon?

It acknowledges both Canon and Legends, IIRC.

That doesn't really answer my question, and raises the question of whether the statement was in reference to the new canon or Legends canon, at least at face value.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Knowledge is a path to power as per Plagueis and if Dooku can still grow after 70 years of near perfect training by exploring new kind of knowledge than I don't think ruling out those Sith to be honest.

It's one of many factors. The reason why people usually grow more powerful as their knowledge increases is because all other factors that determine power are kept the same, or are possibly increased themselves.

Saying that x should be more powerful than y solely because he has more knowledge is a different matter entirely, as there could be a huge disparity between x and y based on other factors.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
But my interpretation of the statement is not that they gained more abilities as they gained more knowledge. My interpretation is that their capabilities increased as they gained more knowledge, because they gained more abilities. Gaining more knowledge doesn't mean that their capabilities would necessarily increase, so it's not redundant.

No it's not, because the increased knowledge could ultimately be irrelevant or insignificant to their purposes. Their capabilities would only increase in the relavent sense if the knowledge itself was relevant to their purposes.

For example, it's conceivable that their increased knowledge could consist solely of the ability to animate a teacup. Obviously it would be incorrect to say that their capabilities increased in any relevant sense in turn. Would their capabilities have increased in a very general sense of literally being capable of more? Yes, but that's obviously not what I had in mind when interpreting the statement.

The ability to animate a teacup is still a capability, the point is that abilities and capabilities are synonymous.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
Yes, but that's obviously not what I had in mind when interpreting the statement.

It's generally implied that text won't be bizarrely irrelevant...

If the statement is referring to their capabilities then the most sensibile reading is that it isn't talking about completely irrelevant capabilities, and that obviously only needed spelling out because you accused it of being redundant.

Like? You brought up an ability to animate a teacup, however, that's not an ability, telekinesis is though, and that's a pretty useful power.

I'm struggling to think of a single Force ability (or dark side technique rather) that could be considered redundant to your typical Banite Sith Lord, without outlining specific purposes, and I think that it because there are none.

And really if their did exist any, it's rather implied that they wouldn't be learning them in the first place.

Like? You brought up an ability to animate a teacup, however, that's not an ability, telekinesis is though, and that's a pretty useful power.

I'm struggling to think of a single Force ability (or dark side technique rather) that could be considered redundant to your typical Banite Sith Lord, without outlining specific purposes, and I think that it because there are none.

The problem here is that canon doesn't really give us a particularly expansive insight into all the ways the Force can be manifested with respect to the wealth of knowledge that is usually referenced, so it's not exactly going to be easy for me to give you the examples you're asking for. We have only a small sample to work with, and I'm not as knowledgable of the mythos as I used to be. But not only is it conceivable but almost certain that a lot of knowledge would be of such a nature that it's simply not as valuable as other pieces of knowledge or redundant with respect to any specific purpose in mind. I mean, it could be as simple as the difference between learning a really effective ritual for gathering power and learning a really poor one. Or maybe learning a more comprehensive defence to specific things and learning one that is more limited. Who knows?

And really if their did exist any, its rather obvious they wouldn't be learning them in the first place.

But it doesn't mean they wouldn't be uncovering such knowledge.

Anyway for the statement to be redundant knowledge would have to in principle always lead to an increase in relevant capabilities, whether or not it does in SW. Otherwise the statement wouldn't be redundant as it could be informing us of this interesting feature of the SW mythos.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
The problem here is that canon doesn't really give us a particularly expansive insight into all the ways the Force can be manifested with respect to the wealth of knowledge that is usually referenced, so it's not exactly going to be easy for me to give you the examples you're asking for. We have only a small sample to work with, and I'm not as knowledgable of the mythos as I used to be. But not only is it conceivable but almost certain that a lot of knowledge would be of such a nature that it's simply not as valuable as other pieces of knowledge or redundant with respect to any specific purpose in mind. I mean, it could be as simple as the difference between learning a really effective ritual for gathering power and learning a really poor one. Or maybe learning a more comprehensive defence to specific things and learning one that is more limited. Who knows?

In which respect, the idea that it needs to be specified that they learned useful powers, suggests a logical alternative is that everything they learned or the majority of what they learned was useless. But that is not, in your words, a sensible reading.

But it doesn't mean they wouldn't be uncovering such knowledge.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
Anyway for the statement to be redundant knowledge would have to in principle always lead to an increase in relevant capabilities, whether or not it does in SW. Otherwise the statement wouldn't be redundant as it could be informing us of this interesting feature of the SW mythos.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sure it does. The Force can be used to manipulate your environment, enhance your body, and offer clairvoyance. In which respect, nothing really conductive to that could be considered redundant, or to knowledge of the dark side in particular. Only perhaps in the respect that the methods in question were poor/ineffective, as you say, or was something they already knew. But broadly speaking, they knowledge they'd gain (and sought out to gain) would be useful, with some outliers in between.

In which respect, the idea that it needs to be specified that they learned useful powers, suggests a logical alternative is that everything they learned or the majority of what they learned was useless. But that is not, in your words, a sensible reading.

Sure it is. We really wouldn't know to what extent further knowledge might aid their plans. The statement could simply be clarifying that it did.

The rate of which they'd uncover knowledge would be rather low, obviously they are only going to seek out knowledge if they deem it worth the effort.

How sure can you be that uncovering knowledge in any form whatsoever wasn't one of their main pursuits?

And they wouldn't always know how valuable the knowledge would be before uncovering it.

That what, by learning dark side techniques they... learnt useful dark side techniques? How interesting, and necessary to point out. mmm

My point was that the statement would have to be logically redundant for it to be redundant at all, and that it being redundant given what we might know about the SW mythos doesn't make it redundant as it appeared in the source, as it could simply be making an observation of such a fact.

I've said this before, the chance that every Banite sith was more powerful than the last over such a long period of time is extremely low.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
Sure it is. We really wouldn't know to what extent further knowledge might aid their plans. The statement could simply be clarifying that it did.

How sure can you be that uncovering knowledge in any form whatsoever wasn't one of their main pursuits?

And they wouldn't always know how valuable the knowledge would be before uncovering it.

My point was that the statement would have to be logically redundant for it to be redundant at all, and that it being redundant given what we might know about the SW mythos doesn't make it redundant as it appeared in the source, as it could simply be making an observation of such a fact.