Originally posted by leonidas
devil's advocate says flight speed is irrelevant since he's grounded. only combat speed showings would carry any weight.
When he’s chasing at superspeed, it’s not just a speed feat. He’s has to see the black racer and react to any change in direction.
When he caught that bullet in the scan in this thread, he didn’t see the trigger finger and then moved his hand in place where the barrel was pointing prior to the gun being fired
He was turned around and had to wait for the trigger to be pulled, shot to be fired, sense the bullet and then react and catch it. That can definitely be used as a combat feat.
He can react to and follow and then catch black racer. I’m sure if someone a lot slower is coming at him he should be able to react and then with his bullet catching speed at close range he should be able to punch these guys to sleep. And these aren’t even his best feats not even close.
Originally posted by leonidas
devil's advocate says flight speed is irrelevant since he's grounded. only combat speed showings would carry any weight.
I posted it for his reactions to BRs repeated changes in direction. I see Diesldude beat me to explaining the relevance. At the speed the racer moves if Orion didn't perceive and change direction with each change he would have lost him in an instant.
Originally posted by beatboks
I posted it for his reactions to BRs repeated changes in direction. I see Diesldude beat me to explaining the relevance. At the speed the racer moves if Orion didn't perceive and change direction with each change he would have lost him in an instant.
and that's fair enough, except i've seen IDENTICAL arguments made for surfer and other characters and seen it dismissed out of hand.
and again, the counter to it is to simply say both are moving at relatively the same speeds. that is VASTLY different from saying he reacted to something moving at or away from him at light speed while he was standing still. imagine you're chasing someone in a car, and you're both moving at 200kph and they change direction and you'll see what i mean. add to that that he's on his disks... and you can see the problem with this feat translating effectively.
Originally posted by leonidas
and that's fair enough, except i've seen IDENTICAL arguments made for surfer and other characters and seen it dismissed out of hand.and again, the counter to it is to simply say both are moving at relatively the same speeds. that is VASTLY different from saying he reacted to something moving at or away from him at light speed while he was standing still. imagine you're chasing someone in a car, and you're both moving at 200kph and they change direction and you'll see what i mean. add to that that he's on his disks... and you can see the problem with this feat translating effectively.
But we have multiple examples of Orion actually moving(not flight) and fighting at super speed. We have statements for microsecond and nanosecond speed (later seems to apply not only to Darkseid, but Desaad, who doesn't even officially have powers at the time). We saw Kalibak not just hit Max Mercury, but note "your speed is less impressive to a god." We've seen Kanto(before he gained the name/title) and Kanto-13 fight at a degree of super speed. Hell Scott Free's only official power as a New God is him manipulating energy, and he has super speed feats(mostly implied but a couple of clear examples). There's at least a couple less clear examples as well.
Yes, not all are Orion, I'm not giving him feats because other New Gods have done it. The point would it seems some degree of super speed is just a trait of being a New God. There's other examples of physical stats in general that I think supports this. Orion while in a coma blitzed a bunch of New Gods. He fought Darkseid who moved to Byrne era Superman what people argue the team moves at to normal humans(too fast to be seen). And Superman even back then is way faster than this team combined.
So Orion isn't reliant on what you're arguing has been argued for Surfer. And everything else seems to be getting ignored for a couple examples of "that's flight so doesn't count."
Does he fight like that in character? He might if people ****ing stabbing him. Thats why I dont like the in character thing because it makes a debate where no debate should be had.
One of these characters could literally snap his fingers and replicate Hiroshima. There is zero chance of them winning this.
Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Does he fight like that in character? He might if people ****ing stabbing him. Thats why I dont like the in character thing because it makes a debate where no debate should be had.One of these characters could literally snap his fingers and replicate Hiroshima. There is zero chance of them winning this.
In a different topic, Orion vs Graviton, people either through dishonesty or idiocy kept arguing Orion just punches or blasts in character 90% of the time, ignoring that's about the same amount of times he's in a fight that can be solved by punching or blasting. Completely ignoring him using versatility when neccessary.
Similar is happening here. "Since I haven't seen him go against people with sharp stuff I'm going to assume he will get stabbed so any argument you make otherwise is out of character."
While it is indeed true that some of Orion's feats are essentially your run of the mill flight chases or bullrushing, Orion fights hand to hand and throws punches at supersonic speeds, blowing up windows all over Metropolis just as a side-effect of them:
That is considerably hypersonic territory.
This zero effort bait thread notwithstanding, of course.
Originally posted by Delta1938
[B]But we have multiple examples of Orion actually moving(not flight) and fighting at super speed. We have statements for microsecond and nanosecond speed (later seems to apply not only to Darkseid, but Desaad, who doesn't even officially have powers at the time). We saw Kalibak not just hit Max Mercury, but note "your speed is less impressive to a god." We've seen Kanto(before he gained the name/title) and Kanto-13 fight at a degree of super speed. Hell Scott Free's only official power as a New God is him manipulating energy, and he has super speed feats(mostly implied but a couple of clear examples). There's at least a couple less clear examples as well.
is this evidence of some speed? sure. but this type of evidence would and has been summarily dismissed MANY (i might say MOST) times in the past. i've seen similar types of arguments made for a number of characters.
feats don't transfer. it's a basic tenet of the forum.
Yes, not all are Orion, I'm not giving him feats because other New Gods have done it. The point would it seems some degree of super speed is just a trait of being a New God. There's other examples of physical stats in general that I think supports this. Orion while in a coma blitzed a bunch of New Gods. He fought Darkseid who moved to Byrne era Superman what people argue the team moves at to normal humans(too fast to be seen). And Superman even back then is way faster than this team combined.
this is just too much abc logic. maybe they do have some super speed. but so does the team. the question is is his combat speed somehow substantially greater than the teams'?
So Orion isn't reliant on what you're arguing has been argued for Surfer. And everything else seems to be getting ignored for a couple examples of "that's flight so doesn't count."
he definitely has a couple good combat speed feats--phil posted another good one, but there really are not that many. does he have more combat speed feats than the surfer? i dunno, maybe, especially if we make all the same considerations you are allowing for. feels like some double standards being applied in this thread is all.
the question is is there enough proof of his speed to put him substantially above the others? i'm sure stilt would love to go scan for scan of orion v logan in combat speed feats, or sabes. you think orion can match spidey in combat speed feats? his best ones? yeah, sure. but when there are so few, is that enough to suggest a couple good feats outweigh all the other times he apparently has no speed or doesn't use it against guys who use it all the time?
i dunno man. like i said, this feels like double standards are being set here by some. maybe you think he wins REGARDLESS of speed. that's fine. i don't care who people think win, i just see some funky arguments being thrown out here that get dismissed in other threads. /shrunk
When BFR is turned off, what does that mean?
So if Hulk fought Batman, say, and bfr was off....
Does that mean he can't just grab Bats and throw him say 100miles away? There's an invisible force field he splatters on?
Or Hulk DOES manage it,but Bats isn't defeated by it, and the fight is still ongoing?