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Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, kbro just used the "different authors" argument on CV so I'd expect him to be consistent and hold to that line of thought here. Yoda struggles with plenty of lesser feats depending on the author (that pillar in AotC, for instance). So if you're gonna use those versions of Yoda for Kyp being Yoda-level, then be my guest. I'm arguing for him at his absolute best, which is only fair given we're using a one-time feat for Kyp. If we're taking Kyp's absolute best, why not do the same for Yoda?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. Great, so when has rots sidious ever had a singularity reversing level tk feat?
2. Singularities>>>Star destroyers. And anyway there's nothing that stops rivi anu from just being an extradoniarily gifted prodigee who's potential was right below anyone with statements indicating greater raw power. An ahsoka tano on steroids
3. that doesn't mean yoda/ben have more raw power though. It just says kyp was the most powerful dude since them, not that he couldn't be more powerful than them

4. Or maybe kyp just has so much raw power/potential that he grew at a way faster rate than yoda declined

1. Again, Sidious has never exercised maximum effort, so that's impossible to compare. However, Palpatine's low-effort showings eclipse Kyp's low effort showings by a considerable margin. We can deduce that the Emperor's more powerful than Kyp and thus, with maximum effort, can replicate the black hole feat.

2. Yoda's still factually more powerful than her.

3. That's exactly what it means, lmfao. Otherwise Kyp would simply be the strongest ever. "If Y's the greatest since X", that means, shocker, that X is greater than Y. For instance, "these are the worst floods since 1962"; that means the 1962 floods are worse than the ones now. Have you never heard weather reporters use this sort of phraseology?

4. Not likely, given that he doesn't grow very much up to Legacy whereas Yoda went from being in his prime to being on his deathbed. He's basically dead at this point, but he sustains himself solely on his powers. That's a huge decrease in power.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
My argument was that dark empire as a source is an outlier and that the head of the eu changed. My argument wasn't about specific authors

Yes, but that should apply to any significant disparity between authors.

1. we can compare rots sidious's maximum effort by assuming that its about on the same level of yoda's which is the whole basis of yoda's scaling to sidious. Also what low-effort tk showings would you be referring to?
2. hence why I said "right below"
3, Yea fair
4. Fair
5. Disagree. DE being an outlier imo isn't because it contradicts a specific author, but because it contradicts the post rotj potrayal(and even pre-rotj tbh) across multiple sources and across multiple authors across the board and additionally there's a far more significant out of universe explanation for it rather than a specific disparity between specific authors and specific sources. It

1. The point is that Yoda doesn't necessarily have TK showings reflecting him at his best. Hence why he needs the scaling off Palpatine.

Unless you take the approach that Yoda, in deep meditation, becomes "one with the Force" and is capable of performing any telekinetic feat he needs to, which is the case in canon with the mountain feat IIRC (in other words, once he communes sufficiently with the Force, he divests himself of limits), but that opens its own can of worms.

For low-effort showings, pretty much all of Palpatine's feats (he rarely ever goes all-out with TK). The one with cracking the foundation of his palace with a thought would be a good start. If you don't trust his musings on the matter, there's always casually pinning Maul and Savage against a wall, choking Maul and Dooku holographically, etc.

2. Alright, although I'm pretty sure that there's chains of scaling that can made off her.

5. That happens more than once in continuity. I'm not saying every author variation has to be taken into account, but if there's a very significant disparity, especially one across multiple sources like you just said, then that's worth noting. TOR, TCW etc. are the big ones.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. The point is that Yoda doesn't necessarily have TK showings reflecting him at his best. Hence why he needs the scaling off Palpatine.

Unless you take the approach that Yoda, in deep meditation, becomes "one with the Force" and is capable of performing any telekinetic feat he needs to, which is the case in canon with the mountain feat IIRC (in other words, once he communes sufficiently with the Force, he divests himself of limits), but that opens its own can of worms.

For low-effort showings, pretty much all of Palpatine's feats (he rarely ever goes all-out with TK). The one with cracking the foundation of his palace with a thought would be a good start. If you don't trust his musings on the matter, there's always casually pinning Maul and Savage against a wall, choking Maul and Dooku holographically, etc.

2. Alright, although I'm pretty sure that there's chains of scaling that can made off her.

5. That happens more than once in continuity. I'm not saying every author variation has to be taken into account, but if there's a very significant disparity, especially one across multiple sources like you just said, then that's worth noting. TOR, TCW etc. are the big ones.

Pretty obvious hyperbole. Especially considering that it took full effort to hold the mountain in place, which is vastly below the threshold of anything yoda can imagine.

Couple of things. First off sids was especially enraged because of the destruction of the death star. Additionally this is post anh sids who had been draining byss for about a decade at this point and would be well above his yoda matching rots incarnation.

And while his showings vs maul/dooku/opress are nice, neither of the characters you've mentioned have anything indicating parity or any sort of comparability with kyp tk wise. indeed, if we compare whats been presented for yoda and kyp at full strain feat wise, than by virtue of yoda's parity with sids, kyp should be capable of replicating those shwoings
2. Maybe
3. Agreed.

Just because you get angry doesn't mean you're enraged and suddenly get amped. Fair enough on Sidious growing since RotS, though.

And no, my point is that Yoda's upper limits are only explored in material that doesn't depict him at his best, so again, if you want to put Kyp on the level of those versions of Yoda, then be my guest.

However, Yoda "at his best" has no demonstrated upper limits (other than absorbing Sidious' Lightning, but that's not TK), and the easiest thing we can do is use his equal or near-equal scaling to Sidious, whose lack of maximum effort showings makes a direct comparison to Kyp's singularity feat impossible. However, if we're talking about casual effort feats, which is the only area we can compare Sidious and Kyp's TK in, then the Emperor has the clear upper hand, unless you can name me Kyp doing something akin to casually dominating the likes of Maul and Tyranus holographically or casually pinning Maul and Savage to a wall. Especially considering that Tyranus alone is fully capable of replicating any of Kyp's other TK feats (unless I'm missing something) without max effort either.

1. Thats incredibly conyvenient for yoda. yoda at absolute effort not being able to replciate what kyp does throughout multiple sources doesn't serve as a valid basis for claiming that material doesn't depict yoda at his best or that its somehow lowballing yoda. His showing in star wars#29 is arguably his best showing in any sw material. Yoda stalemating sidious in ROTS does't mean that he's potrayed better specifically in rots where both yoda and sidious are lacking tk feats aside from throwing pods at each other. Yoda's scaling from sidious doesn't just apply to yoda's potrayal in rots sepcifically as a source but would apply to his potrayal anywhere including comics and novels where we see him showing his best effort. And you can't scale yoda off sidious and then deny sidious the limitations he would get from scaling off yoda. Yoda has demonstrated limits and so Sidious's limits should be at best marginally above.

The difference bewteen my arguemnt for dark empire and the situation here is that yoda's potrayals in the most recent star wars comic or in loe don't have a plethora of surrounding material that is consistently higher than what yoda is shown.

Based on what can dooku replicate any of kyp's showings?

And so its clear I've only been discussing "kyp at his best" in the context of kyp not having his in character limitaions which prevent him from replicating his best feats in typical combat scenarios. Limitations which yoda does not have and has succesfully overcome.

1. No idea what you're talking about. Yoda having problems stopping missiles or lifting pillars represent limits that don't apply to him at his best in the EU. At his best in the EU, he's a match or near-match for someone who can casually choke powerful Sith Lords holographically and the like.

2. I'm not talking about the canon feat. I'm talking about Yoda not being able to stop a missile or having trouble lifting the pillar in AotC. Other depictions are "consistently higher"; we can assume that those limitations don't apply to Yoda here. The canon feat is his best one, so obviously my argument wouldn't apply to it. We've finished discussing canon; I conceded that Kyp and canon Yoda are approximately on the same level in terms of TK on a feats-based approach. This is all about Legends Yoda now.

3. Based on his cruiser showing and others, which is at least as good as any of Kyp's non-singularity TK feats.

4. As I've said about four times already, Kyp having more raw power than Yoda isn't an altogether ridiculous argument. That's entirely plausible. However, he just doesn't put out that level of power in combat - ever. If we're discussing him the context of combat-usable power, then he isn't on Yoda's level.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. No idea what you're talking about. Yoda having problems stopping missiles or lifting pillars represent limits that don't apply to him at his best in the EU. At his best in the EU, he's a match or near-match for someone who can casually choke powerful Sith Lords holographically and the like.

2. I'm not talking about the canon feat. I'm talking about Yoda not being able to stop a missile or having trouble lifting the pillar in AotC. Other depictions are "consistently higher"; we can assume that those limitations don't apply to Yoda here. The canon feat is his best one, so obviously my argument wouldn't apply to it. We've finished discussing canon; I conceded that Kyp and canon Yoda are approximately on the same level in terms of TK on a feats-based approach. This is all about Legends Yoda now.

3. Based on his cruiser showing and others, which is at least as good as any of Kyp's non-singularity TK feats.

4. As I've said about four times already, Kyp having more raw power than Yoda isn't an altogether ridiculous argument. That's entirely plausible. However, he just doesn't put out that level of power in combat - ever. If we're discussing him the context of combat-usable power, then he isn't on Yoda's level.

2. I wasn't aware of that. but they aren't "approximately on the same level" in a canon feats approach, kyp's pretty clearly ahead here pertaining to tk.

3. Alright

4. Then we're in agreement.

Kbro doing a solid job holding Nova down until I can get to a computer. 👆

So, Kyp has Yoda-tier TK (maybe even Sidious-tier TK), although Yoda's clearly the better combatant.

Looks like I'm ranking him over Raynar Thul in terms of Force strength again.

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3. Yoda
4. Knightfall Vader
5. Valkorion
6. Darth Plagueis
7. Kyp Durron
8. Darth Krayt
9. Raynar Thul
10. Revan

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Kbro doing a solid job holding Nova down until I can get to a computer. 👆

What happened lol

Originally posted by Geistalt
So, Kyp has Yoda-tier TK (maybe even Sidious-tier TK), although Yoda's clearly the better combatant.

Looks like I'm ranking him over Raynar Thul in terms of Force strength again.

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3. Yoda
4. Knightfall Vader
5. Valkorion
6. Darth Plagueis
7. Kyp Durron
8. Darth Krayt
9. Raynar Thul
10. Revan

In terms of sheer Force strength Knightfall Vader should be above Yoda, and UnuThul is possibly above everyone on the list.

Anyway, I've reduced the ancient/pre-PT sith, and raised Anakin and Obi Wan.

Thank f-uck he didn't get to his PC, nobody should be subjected to Kyp > Yoda retardation.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
In terms of sheer Force strength, UnuThul is possibly above everyone on the list.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
UnuThul is possibly above everyone on the list.

😐

Luke ragdolled and beat UnuThul in a telepathy battle.

Originally posted by Geistalt
How much of that Force strength was actually his, though? I'm trying to rank him where he stands without drawing on the Colony.

Oh, then he's nothing special.

Originally posted by Azronger
😐

Luke ragdolled and beat UnuThul in a telepathy battle.

My impression in that fight was that UnuThul may have been more powerful (he was like knocking Luke around) but Luke was obviously the better fighter, but my memory may be wrong.

No, Luke legit ragdolled him and beat him in a TP battle

Originally posted by The Merchant
As for my views, Accolades are number 1 for me with power-scaling a close second. So my list for the Strongest Sith would be something like this:

1. Palpatine
2. Krayt Reborn
3.Taalon Post pool dip.
4. Caedus
5. Knightfall Vader
6. Plagueis
7. RO2 Sith
8. Bane
9. SWTOR Vitiate/Valkorion
10. Darth Malak
11. Darth Revan
12. Exar Kun
13. Post-Nathema Vitiate
14. Marka Ragnos
15.Tulak Hord
16.Freedon Nadd
17.Naga Sadow
18.Ludo Kressh
19.Ajunta Pall
20.Karness Muur

Not sure where to rank Kyp Durron possessed by Kun, he does have a statement that potentially places him above Palpatine.

Where's Darth Nihilus? Kreia says that he learnt the "greatest" of the Sith teachings. Although this led to him becoming a slave of his hunger, it basically made him a scaling beast who is virtually unstoppable. I also don't know how Sidious fits into this, or any of the RO2 Sith. Isn't Nihilus some sort of anomaly when ranking?

@Ell here's the passage again

Luke killed the last of Raynar's bodyguards by Force-slamming them into the wall so hard their thoraxes burst, then the two Jedi were on one another, their lightsabers flashing toward each other's heads with all the speed and might they could summon.

That was the trouble with powerful men-especially younger ones. Awed by their own strength, they so often believed strength was the answer to every problem. Luke was older and wiser. While Raynar swung, he pivoted.

As Raynar's gold blade sliced the air where Luke's head had been, Luke's boot was kicking him behind the ankles, knocking his legs out from under him and stretching him out flat.

But Raynar was a Jedi, and all Jedi were quick. He caught himself in the Force, levitating himself just long enough to bring his golden blade sweeping in at Luke's shoulder.

Luke had no choice but to block with his blade, and no place to block but the forearm. Raynar's lightsaber went spinning off, still securely in the grasp of his three-fingered hand, and caught one of Luke's bugcrunchers squarely in the back. The weapon sliced through six centimeters of laminanium armor before the severed forearm flew free.

The blade deactivated, and the hilt disappeared into the tangle of death and destruction at the droid's feet.

The pain of losing an arm might have forced a common Jedi to stop fighting, but Raynar was no common Jedi. He had the Force potential of the Colony to draw on, and he did that now, swinging his remaining hand up to hurl Luke down the corridor as he had done before.

But this time, Luke was ready. He placed his own hand in front of Raynar's and rooted himself in the heart of the Force, and when he did that, he became the very essence of the immovable object. Nothing could dislodge him-not one of Lando's asteroid tuggers, not the Megador's sixteen ion engines, not the black hole at the center of the galaxy itself.

Luke stood that way, waiting, dimly aware that his surviving bugcrunchers were moving into defensive positions, one at his back and the other just inside the burst hatch. Raynar continued to struggle, trying to hurl Luke down the corridor, trying to move him a single centimeter.

Luke did not budge, and finally Raynar stopped struggling and met his eyes with a stunned and anguished gaze.

The Master sighed and shook his head. "What am I going to do with you, Raynar Thul?" he asked. "You learn nothing from your mistakes."

Luke deactivated his lightsaber and picked Raynar up by the collar and slammed him against the wall. He used the Force to pin him there, waiting for an answer to his question, watching as the expression in his captive's pained eyes turned from astonishment to anger to calculation.

@Merchant Bane > Valkorion is pretty bold and I don't think I agree. A single offhand statement about Bane surpassing sith before him doesn't refute the huge body of literature that makes Valkorion's advantage pretty clear and obvious.

My list for Sith in Force power would be:

1. Palpatine
2. Krayt Reborn
3. Plagueis
4. Valkorion
5. Caedus
6. Vader
7. Tenebrous
8. Darth Nihilus
9. Exar Kun
10. Dooku

I'm using RotJ Vader, I dunno for Knightfall Vader.

Left out post-pool Taalon, he might be number 1 but it feels weird putting him there.
For Jedi:

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Yoda
3. Anakin Skywalker
4. Kyp Durron
5. Galen Marek
6. Revan Reborn
7. Jacen Solo
8. Mace Windu
9. The Outlander
10. Obi Wan ??

Left out possibilities like Oneness Jacen.