Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, remember, beyond being a noob, Spiderman's instructions were to just web Cap's team up. So, it seemed pretty clear that he wasn't meant to go HAM either.
Which is exactly what I said earlier about the Cap Vs IM fight: Tony was angry, but he didn't really want to kill Steve, which limited his arsenal and allowed Steve to take the advantage.
Well, that in itself is obvious. There was actually an interview with IM's fight choreographer for CA:CW, a good 4-5 months before the film even came out, that said Tony would be using "minimum force" if fighting Steve.
But the point I was making was that, even then, he needed a distraction at the end to get out of trouble and eek out a win.
It's worth noting that Steve wasn't fighting to hurt Tony either. If he really considered Tony an enemy that fight could have gone a lot worse - Steve is a soldier, while Tony is an engineer. If Steve wanted to kill Tony the way Tony wanted to kill Bucky he wouldn't have fought defensively from the beginning, simply trying to delay him while Bucky escaped.
Originally posted by Dreampanther
It's worth noting that Steve wasn't fighting to hurt Tony either. If he really considered Tony an enemy that fight could have gone a lot worse - Steve is a soldier, while Tony is an engineer. If Steve wanted to kill Tony the way Tony wanted to kill Bucky he wouldn't have fought defensively from the beginning, simply trying to delay him while Bucky escaped.
Not sure why Tony being an engineer matters. He'd been Iron Man for 8 years at that point, and fought everything from terrorists to Hydra soldiers to aliens to killer robots (just like Steve had), as well as Extremis soldiers and other Iron Man suits.
And Tony going all out is far more dangerous than Steve going all out. Even if Steve fought defensively initially, he still used his full arsenal. Tony never used anything stronger than his repulsors against Steve. He literally used none of his more powerful weapons against him. Like his fight choreographer said he would, he was using "minimum force" against Steve. And Winter Soldier was also fighting Iron Man. He wasn't simply running away the whole time. Hell, he pretty much saved Steve's ass three separate times during that fight. First time after Tony initially backhanded Cap after learning the truth (which floored Steve for a good ten seconds), then later when IM had Steve in a mounted position and was punching him in the face, and right at the end during the "stand down, final warning" moment. Any way you cut it, even though Steve "won", it was made abundantly clear that Iron Man is above Captain America.
Originally posted by TheVaultDwellerIf you look at the fight that mount wasn't really going to determine the end of the fight considering how much damage Cap can take, for example when War machine got injured Tony shot Falcon with a seemingly regular repulsar blast that took him out, yet Cap took a beating plus took 2 unshielded blasts to the same torso like Falcon and still got up ready for more. If Cap is standing in front of Iron man pre-skill download he can't beat him. Tony flew down and got the mount but that's something Bane can't do under any conditions
Yeah, earlier when they fought 1-on-1, Iron Man had Cap in a mounted position and was laying into him until Bucky intervened. Yet 2 minutes later Tony seemingly can't even block a single punch. That fight was all over the place.
Originally posted by psycho gundam
If you look at the fight that mount wasn't really going to determine the end of the fight considering how much damage Cap can take, for example when War machine got injured Tony shot Falcon with a seemingly regular repulsar blast that took him out, yet Cap took a beating plus took 2 unshielded blasts to the same torso like Falcon and still got up ready for more. If Cap is standing in front of Iron man pre-skill download he can't beat him. Tony flew down and got the mount but that's something Bane can't do under any conditions
You're completely missing the point I was making. Tony was able to hang with Steve and get the upper hand without too much trouble. He was also going H2H with Winter Soldier and landing multiple clean hits. Yet 2 minutes later and he suddenly can't land a hit without help.
Originally posted by psycho gundam
Cap can replicate that scene. Just replace the beams for shield tosses. He's just as physically powerful as Iron man is (if you remove his flight assist)
In that same fight, Iron Man casually punched through a several inch thick wall and bodily yanked a guy through it with minimal effort. Hit another guy with a repulsor blast so hard that he actually cratered another wall on impact (it's actually the first repulsor in that gif, but the impact got cut off). Used his smart guns to drop multiple terrorists at once while leaving the captives completely unharmed. And later got shot by a tank and then destroyed it. So, I strongly disagree. But I actually meant just the punch at the beginning. As in Tony would punch Bane once and he'd die.
He flew at him and got the mount, then missed his first of 3 punches from that position. If they are standing face to face Cap is superior to THAT suit (which is the Bleeding edge btw). Cap's fighting ability is what Iron man couldn't overcome meaning their physical stats are very similar, and once his patterns were downloaded the a.i. could counter him. It didn't make him stronger or more durable. Tony needs something extra to get an advantage, be it flight or copying Cap's moves
Watch the beginning of Civil war. Cap kicked a heavy vehicle and that knocked a guy flying. He also took repeated punches to the face from Winter soldier's left arm in the self titled film after the latter shot him several times. That arm can go through concrete as well.
Originally posted by psycho gundam
He flew at him and got the mount, then missed his first of 3 punches from that position. If they are standing face to face Cap is superior to THAT suit (which is the Bleeding edge btw). Cap's fighting ability is what Iron man couldn't overcome meaning their physical stats are very similar, and once his patterns were downloaded the a.i. could counter him. It didn't make him stronger or more durable. Tony needs something extra to get an advantage, be it flight or copying Cap's moves
He literally used his one gauntlet to do an aerial flip. That's hardly flying at him. And no, his CW suit is simply called the Mark XLVI armour. It might have copied that look from the comics, but that's it. It is not even remotely comparable to his actual Bleeding Edge armour from the comics. And, again, you are missing the point. I have an issue with how he suddenly became completely incapable of doing anything without assistance. Not with Steve being better at H2H.
And I fail to see how Cap's H2H being better suddenly means their physical stats are comparable. The fact that, once the AI could track Cap's moves, Tony could easily catch a shield strike from Cap and bring it to a dead halt (similar to what Spiderman did to WS' metal arm, and Tony also actually did to the metal arm earlier in the fight as well), suggests Iron Man is stronger. And we know he is more durable as well. Unless you think Cap can take one of Hawkeye's exploding arrows to the chest with only superficial damage (which happened during the airport fight).
Iron Man is stronger and more durable, but Cap had enough skill to counter in pure H2H (and, based on multiple discussions and posts, is the opinion of several other posters here as well). And, again, I don't have a problem with that. Like I have said more than once by now, I have a problem with how he was at least able to tussle with them earlier and get some licks in, but suddenly became near helpless without assistance from FRIDAY.
Originally posted by psycho gundam
Watch the beginning of Civil war. Cap kicked a heavy vehicle and that knocked a guy flying. He also took repeated punches to the face from Winter soldier's left arm in the self titled film after the latter shot him several times. That arm can go through concrete as well.
And Tony's suitcase armour (a lower-end, on-the-fly armour) sent a town car skidding like 20 feet with little more than a shove from his foot. Bucky's arm can knock chunks out of concrete. Iron Man casually put his arm through a concrete wall, and pulled someone back through it. And even if we assume the metal arm is comparable to Iron Man's, Bucky's metal arm > Steve's arms (their fight in Civil War perfectly highlights this), so, if anything, that hurts your argument that they have comparable strength.
Originally posted by psycho gundam
To add to the helicopter feat: Cap fights a bit and gets knocked down an elevator shaft, climbs up a few floors using the cables, holds the full takeoff of the helicopter which starts signalling that it can't get lift at full rotor speed, gets choked by an arm 4 x longer than Black widow who almost died from getting choked for a second, while being choked he falls like 50 feet into the water under a helicopter then he swims completely under water carrying the 230lbs +/- dead weight of the Winter soldier 50 meters to safety.This guy's a tank.
He also fights Iron man hand to hand with the latter's computer admitting Tony couldn't beat him in close combat.
PIS free IM would kill or ko Cap in one punch. That fight has 0 weight in a forum.
The helicopter feat isn't that great. Two arms, each contributes to 1500 lbs.
Originally posted by Silent MasterI don't have to. The status quo remains true until proven otherwise. You must prove that the toy submarine glass has the same durability as a full size submarine.
Prove it, show proof that it's easier to bust through reinforced submarine glass underwater than it is to break a column.
Originally posted by PsychotronHe didn't.
He overpowered Spider-man in Civil War. So, that kinda shits all over Bane.