Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He wasn't exerted at all after killing Ares in 616. Stated/shown/implied nowhere, not even in the interviews.
Originally posted by Galan007
^ The contradiction is that the energy Sentry expended to kill Ares was minimal, and had nothing to do with his eventual defeat. Per the arc itself: Sentry allowed himself to die -- that's how/why he was beaten.{edit}
Stilt ninja'd me... 🙁
Ah.
But let me just toss something out... what if he was? I mean let's face it, there are rare occasions were Sentry is noted as being stupidly powerful. You know containing the cosmic cube, stalemating Galactus, and the whole Molecule Man thing right? Well it's sometimes noted that when things like fights take place in the upper echelons what people see is simply an image that their brains can grasp/process. We know from his fight with Nate Grey that Ares was supposed to be somewhat unique right? Something about he's ALWAYS the God of War, always has been always will be or something like that right? So what if Sentry did there was more than simply tearing apart the physical body of a class 80, but rather something like simaltaniously tearing his physical body, canceling his Olympion Immortality, and kind of messing with the fabric of reality to undo that unique status that Ares had. I mean the fact that there wasn't specific mention of vast effort doesn't mean that there wasn't a lot going on behind the scenes. The visuals of the flashback doesn't really depict anything differently than the actual event(it still doesn't LOOK like it's taking a lot of effort) after all.
Originally posted by Galan007
"What If", indeed... And that is exactly why I posted that scene. 👆Should the Watchers' statements in that What If take precedence over what we were told in the arc itself..?
Originally posted by Galan007
Uatu and the other Watcher are recalling what happened in 616 there.
ok, cool. so it's clear that sentry issue is a definite alternate universe. anyone disagree?
@phil: the difference between the 2 is pretty clear to me--the moment of divergence is made clear to us in one. it is logan's decision to disobey that caused it. with sentry we have no idea where the divergence occurred--unless it's somewhere in the issue--don't think i've read that tbh. you sound like you're saying the entire logan issue was an alt universe. but the alt reality never existed until the decision made by logan. it's stated clearly. same as the uncanny avengers. they failed to save the earth. the instant that happened, the world died and a new future was born. but, they continued to fight. they righted the wrong and won and are again in the 616. how is that different from the logan situation? the ONLY difference is that they went back and saved things. logan didn't have access to kang so couldn't go back and NOT kill hulk. do you think the feats the avengers accomplished in that 'future' were done by 'other universal avengers'? or because they did come back it's completely different situations?
and if the universes were the same up until logan decided to kill hulk, how does that make that logan any different, ability-wise than our own logan (at least of that era?)
Before we continue..
Leo, how many What Ifs have you read?
Because this...
Originally posted by leonidasLooks like it's written by somebody who hasn't read a lot.
and if the universes were the same up until logan decided to kill hulk, how does that make that logan any different, ability-wise than our own logan (at least of that era?)
You do realize that if you apply your logic of 'if everything is the same up until that point, and a decision changes everything, how does that not apply the the mainstream version?' is literally the premise of almost every What If? So you're literally saying that what happens in What Ifs should be canon for abilities in mainstream?
--
Originally posted by leonidasYes, at which point the Hulk killing takes place in an alternate reality, with an alternate reality Logan and an alternate reality Hulk.
but the alt reality never existed until the decision made by logan.
A whole NEW Universe is created, with separate versions of the characters, whose events you're trying to pass off as valid to the main Universe, just because it branched off of it.
Every What If branches off of the main Universe, but we don't say the characters have the same capabilities, because they don't. Powerlevels in What Ifs are all over the place.
i've actually read...a LOT of what ifs, which is why i think SOME should be usable. the logan one is fine imo. some/many what ifs have outcomes that result from the divergence that change the characters dramatically though. what if daredevil had spiderman's powers? for a made up example. what if the ff hadn't got their powers is another. those divergent realities have exactly different characters born at the moment of divergence. you seem like you were saying that the logan in that issue was completely different from ours. he wasn't--he was precisely the same UNTIL the decision was made. then THAT logan was thrust into a different universe but why should he BE different in terms of his abilities?
again, i'm not advocating all what ifs are good to use. some also take place over huge amounts of time where change can build up to....everything. but some should be just fine. it depends on where/how the divergence happens and what precedes from it. and if i'm not mistaken, i think that IS a rule here at kmc. what if peter parker saved rick jones? not usable, clearly. unless something can be proven to be different about a character's abilities in these cases though, i don't see why they shouldn't be usable here.
Originally posted by Galan007
Like I said: I am not referencing anyone/thing other than Hickman's portrayal of Marvel's timestream. It all takes place in the *same* universe under *his* pen.
Wait, but there's several dozens more existing simultaneously withIN 616,
cause "adult" Frank from Hickman's run, isn't the only "Adult" Frank from a possible future.
Originally posted by Galan007
You'd know that my stance here is quite incontrovertible if you actually bothered to read the explicit material I have already provided... But you're obviously not going to, so whatevs... That's your prerogative.
My (or the) "prerogative" is not mine, it's Marvel's. Always has been.
Originally posted by Galan007
Just understand that a marvunapp entry and Wiki page(lol?) hardly change Hickman's *on-panel* representation of the timestream.
If you google Franklin Richards,
any and every site imaginable has Hickman's Adult Franklin manifesting in 616 from Alternate reality-10235.
Also, while that "wiki" page may make ya giggle, it's 100% legit concerning the complete listing of alternate Franklin Richards'.
BTW. Every universe they (that wiki page) presents, can be verified at Marvunapp,
I just didn't wanna go nuts copy/pasting 30+ links of individual realities from Marvunapp pages.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey look friend,
if you can find that page where Hickman via narration or via character states Franklin came from "616," you got it.
I know he came from one of 616's Futures, like Vance from GOTG reality 691, and every other cat from possible futures,
so posting he came from the future doesn't define anything, since they all came from a possible 616 "future."
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If it were true, and Hickman's "future" is the definitive 616 future,
then we'll never again see another story involving the "future,"
since Hickman dominates as yall believe.
Writer's would have to adhere to Hickman's story since they can't interrupt his vision,
writers would have to work around Hickman's idea,
writers would not be able to introduce anything new leading u to Adult Franklin's future,
because since it's the absolute future, it can't be changed.
Writers would have to curb their stories to begin after Adult Franklin' future.
I'm 99.9% certain, that is NOT the case.
Originally posted by Galan007
The way I see it: feats from characters native to 616 are absolutely usable, regardless of the universe/time they travel to...Unless, of course, they are altered in some way by this travel.
Originally posted by Galan007
However, I did just think of something else: in the sequences I posted earlier, the time gem brought Cap(and co.) to that point in the distant future, and then 'ported them away after their convo with Franklin. This is quite important because under Hickman, the infinity gems ONLY function in their native universe. So if the future they traveled to would have indeed been some entirely different universe(as some are arguing), the gem would have been completely inoperable... And mind you: Cap traveled to SEVERAL points in the future with the time gem during that arc, so this was NOT an isolated incident.
Also, these "futures," although they reside in alternate realities, they're still linked to 616.
So, I'm not surprised the Time Gem worked.
Originally posted by Galan007
Again, Hickman's take on Marvel time-flow is overtly clear. It's all 616.
😂 My goodness. Resorting to Twitter for 'proof' again? Heh, interesting...
Anyway, I guess everyone else here is wrong except good ol' Mr. M... So there's really no reason to get into it further with you. 👆
Originally posted by darthgooberWell, nothing in the series itself suggested that Sentry's extermination of Ares was anything but effortless and required minimal power expenditure. And, while I am certainly no authority on the matter(some know Sentry MUCH better than myself), it was confirmed that Sentry/Void was only stopped because he *wanted* to be stopped -- he *allowed* himself to die. No mention of Ares being integral to his defeat at all.
Well, Watcher's DO tend to know what's going better than anyone on the ground. That's kind of the whole reason they were created. Besides even if it wasn't the original intent when the feat took place, rectons DO happen. Also, would it even be an actual recton? Was there specific mention of it being effortless, or was there just no mention of it requiring a lot of effort? Omission doesn't necessarily equal a contradicting statement. Don't forget, in the issue it took place all that's mentioned about the final shots of Supes and DD was that windows were shattered.
In fact, that line from the What If is the only time is was so much as alluded to on panel that the slaying of Ares is what weakened Sentry enough to be beaten... Hence the differing opinions here.
Originally posted by leonidasYou're using random terms like thrust - as if somebody teleported 616 Logan into an alternate Universe to beat 616 Hulk, who was somewhat also teleported there. No.
then THAT logan was thrust into a different universe but why should he BE different in terms of his abilities?
616 Logan wasn't thrust into anything. A new version of Logan in a new version of the Universe fighting a new version of Hulk was created, the moment the change occured. 616 Logan and the Logan who killed Hulk are two distinct beings, living in different Universes, fighting different Hulks.
Aaaaanyway, this is circles. Sorry leo, but we'll agree to disagree.
Originally posted by Badabing
I hope this can be resolved without mod intervention. The 5 people discussing the topic are pretty well versed in comics lore. There's no reason it should escalate.Can somebody PM the thread(s) which started this discussion?
Originally posted by Galan007
: Well, nothing in the series itself suggested that Sentry's extermination of Ares was anything but effortless and required minimal power expenditure. And, while I am certainly no authority on the matter(some know Sentry MUCH better than myself), it was confirmed that Sentry/Void was only stopped because he *wanted* to be stopped -- he *allowed* himself to die. No mention of Ares being integral to his defeat at all.In fact, that line from the What If is the only time is was so much as alluded to on panel that the slaying of Ares is what weakened Sentry enough to be beaten... Hence the differing opinions here.
What if taking out Ares that way WAS part of him wanting to be beaten? Think about it, let's suppose just for the sake of argument that that the Watcher's statement was accurate and Sentry ripping Ares was as involved as I hypothesized... wouldn't it be a LOT easier just to rid himself of the God by tossing him into the sun or something like that? If Sentry were at war with himself and just about ready to give into his suicidal urges, burning up WAY more energy than necessary just to take out Ares in a dramatic fashion could go a long way in regards to helping the heroes of Earth eventually defeat him.
And don't get me wrong because I'm in no way pitching what I'm saying as being the "right" interpretation of events, at this point I'm just idly throwing out a way to tie everything together without dismissing anything.