so that would mean anything accomplished by cap while visiting those futures (alt realities by some accounts) would be canon and fully usable in a forum setting. which really only makes sense. /shrug
if nothing else this thread has at least highlighted the need--and benefits--of looking at cases individually.
Originally posted by leonidas
if nothing else this thread has at least highlighted the need--and benefits--of looking at cases individually.
We've gone full circle with what I wrote in the first sentence on the first page:
Originally posted by Philosophía
I think individual stories should be taken on a case by case basis. Not all stories set in the past/future are alternate Universes in Marvel nor in DC. If, for example, you have a story where the past is changed and the future is altered, it's quite obvious that the story involving the future isn't an alternate Universe - it was quite literally the same characters, same Universe only further ahead in time. I haven't read the King Thor story in a long time - at the end, when he goes back in time, the future gets erased, no? That's a clear sign that it's the same character, not an alternate version.
👆
only phil would 👆 himself. 😂
and i've agreed with the point all along--that's not how it's done in the forum though--at least not usually. and the question of whether or not the future is part of 616 is still not always easily established. i'll use my logan/hulk example and the uncanny avengers/reigning arcs. finally home from work and have access to the book....
some what ifs, like the logan story, start in 616 THEN diverge:
uatu clearly states he is watching OUR world. but, "the moment he decides to deliberately disobey his orders a new reality diverges into being'.
up until the moment of divergence that what if was set in the 616. therefore, if logan went ahead, traveled back in time and did NOT kill hulk, it would be exactly the same as the uncanny arc and the reigning arc. by that reasoning, feats of logan in that book should be usable in discussion, no?
you'll say no (maybe) because it says a new REALITY diverged into being. but the situation is literally identical to the others i mentioned, and others have also mentioned. this inconsistency highlights the reason that a case-by-case look is pretty important imo and that the "standard" should be re-examined.
The Majority of What Ifs are like that. A single decision leading to the creation of an alternate reality.
That does not mean that whatever happens following that decision in the alternate reality is valid for the 616 version -- because it's an alternate version of the character. If we go that route, then most what Ifs would be valid, because it just depends on the action they took, and what follows is within their capabilities, even if it takes place in another Universe.
If 616 Logan had traveled back in the past, and changed it so that he would have killed Hulk - assuming he could, effectively rewriting the 616 Universe, it would count - because it's that same character, not a version created in an alternate Universe.
We're literally typing the same thing over and over again.
I know he didn't, but my point is, if we assume that up until the point of divergence the histories are EXACTLY the same (as they should be), what happens if they show events prior to the divergence which differs?
Or feelings? For example, if Wolverine had a thought just before he killed the Hulk, of how much he always wanted buttsex with the Hulk (an extreme example, but that kinda thing).
well, the buttsex thing would be in character, so that fine. 👆
if he went all ooc then it would be easy to show, no? that's what i'm saying. if the character remains in character, it shouldn't much matter the source. if he/she goes way out, then it shouldn't. its part of the reason we look at outliers already with some skepticism.
@phil: the character (logan in this case) wasn't a version created in an alternate universe. he was 616--until the moment of divergence. nut he doesn't become....NOT logan in that instance.
Originally posted by leonidasYes - like the majority of What Ifs. They start of saying what happened in the main continuity, and what changed to create the What If Universe. The Logan who actually killed the Hulk is from an alternate Universe. If that was 616 Logan that was explicitly from the future of 616 Universe, it would have been valid for the 616 version. But it's explicitly from an alternate Universe.
@phil: the character (logan in this case) wasn't a version created in an alternate universe. he was 616--until the moment of divergence.
Here is a prime example...
In this particular What If, Uatu and another Watcher tell us how the events of Siege supposedly played-out in 616. They outright say that the exertion required for Sentry to kill Ares left him weakened/vulnerable, which is what ultimately led to his defeat:
...Which contradicts what we saw/learned in the *actual* event. So which interpretation do we use..?
@phil: that logan wasn't "from" a different reality. not unless you want to say uatu lied and wasn't watching our world. that logan simply made a different DECISION. the decision is the point when the 2 logans were "born". the killer logan was born in the 616, but was designated as something OTHER than 616 because of the decision. least that's how i see it.
in regards to the sentry what if--we know already that the events didn't fall that way, so to me that looks like it would be set in a different reality. that would seem to indicate that sentry was weaker, or maybe that ares was more powerful....?
Originally posted by leonidasLeo, that's how What Ifs work. They showed what happened in the main reality, then they show the point of divergence. The actual act of killing the Hulk happened in the alternate reality, with the alternate reality Logan and alternate reality Hulk.
@phil: that logan wasn't "from" a different reality. not unless you want to say uatu lied and wasn't watching our world. that logan simply made a different DECISION. the decision is the point when the 2 logans were "born". the killer logan was born in the 616, but was designated as something OTHER than 616 because of the decision. least that's how i see it.
Originally posted by leonidasIt literally says in your reality it happened that way, which is the same line of description you're using for the logan what if...
sentry what if--we know already that the events didn't fall that way, so to me that looks like it would be set in a different reality. that would seem to indicate that sentry was weaker, or maybe that ares was more powerful....?
Originally posted by leonidasUatu and the other Watcher are recalling what happened in 616 there.
in regards to the sentry what if--we know already that the events didn't fall that way, so to me that looks like it would be set in a different reality. that would seem to indicate that sentry was weaker, or maybe that ares was more powerful....?
Originally posted by Galan007
Here is a prime example...In this particular What If, Uatu and another Watcher tell us how the events of Siege supposedly played-out in 616. They outright say that the exertion required for Sentry to kill Ares left him weakened/vulnerable, which is what ultimately led to his defeat:
...Which contradicts what we saw/learned in the *actual* event. So which interpretation do we use..?
