Originally posted by Patient_Leech
There's not as much in the scriptures of the Koran that could help it reform.
You say that as if non-fundamentalists of any religion believe in both the inerrancy and totality of scripture. Plenty say they do, but the all pick and choose. Case in point: millions of Western Christians and Muslims who have no problem integrating into secular society.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
You say that as if non-fundamentalists of any religion believe in both the inerrancy and totality of scripture. Plenty say they do, but the all pick and choose. Case in point: millions of Western Christians and Muslims who have no problem integrating into secular society.
A couple points you're missing:
1. Even non-fundamentalist Muslims still hold beliefs in doctrines that are in outright opposition to free liberal society, like death for apostates (that is not a doctrine in Christianity).
2. Another thing is that Christianity was not founded by a warlord nutcase, so it doesn't order its followers to wage jihad on infidels including dying in the process as a high, glorious honor.
Those are big differences. Yes, moderates don't take some of these things very seriously and that's good, but many of them would still be in favor of changing laws to make certain things like apostasy and homosexuality illegal (take a look at Saudi Arabia). And that is not conducive to free society. That is theocracy. I don't have exact poll numbers, but I guarantee if you took polls of Moderate Chrsitians vs. Moderate Muslims and asked, "Should the punishment from each respective religion for apostasy be death?" you'd get a lot more "Yeses" from the Moderate Muslims than you would from the Moderate Christians.
Point is they are not the same religion and to equate the two is foolish.
IMO: Jews, Christians and Muslims can find "common ground" in some aspects of their faith.
1. I perceive Quran as the more refined and accurate (extension) of earlier Abrahamic scriptures. Surah Al-Ma'idah and Al-An'am are dedicated to the history of Jews and Christians and address their misconceptions.
2. All Abrahamic faiths refer to the same Cosmic God.
3. I believe that revelations of God are consistent throughout ages.
Take a look at original Ten Commandments for example: http://www.dummies.com/religion/judaism/the-torah/the-ten-commandments-according-to-the-torah/
Absolutely compatible with Islamic teachings.
4. I recognize Moses (PBUH) and Jesus Christ (PBUH) as prophets/messengers of God along with many others. Muhammad (SAW) is the last prophet/messenger of God.
5. I do not generalize about qualities and personalities of prophets - they emerged in different environments and confronted different realities but they were all consistent in their message in regards to belief in oneness of the Cosmic God and to heed his warnings and embrace his teachings.
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I am not interested in debate about Christianity (versus) Islam. I am all for finding common grounds in the matters of faith and interfaith harmony.
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
1. Even non-fundamentalist Muslims still hold beliefs in doctrines that are in outright opposition to free liberal society, like death for apostates (that is not a doctrine in Christianity).
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kashif-n-chaudhry/does-the-koran-endorse-ap_b_5539236.html
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/05/islam-saudi-apostasy-201458142128717473.html
Quran does not suggests death penalty for apostasy.
https://quran.com/2/256
https://quran.com/18/29
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
2. Another thing is that Christianity was not founded by a warlord nutcase, so it doesn't order its followers to wage jihad on infidels including dying in the process as a high, glorious honor.
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Those are big differences. Yes, moderates don't take some of these things very seriously and that's good, but many of them would still be in favor of changing laws to make certain things like apostasy and homosexuality illegal (take a look at Saudi Arabia). And that is not conducive to free society. That is theocracy. I don't have exact poll numbers, but I guarantee if you took polls of Moderate Chrsitians vs. Moderate Muslims and asked, "Should the punishment from each respective religion for apostasy be death?" you'd get a lot more "Yeses" from the Moderate Muslims than you would from the Moderate Christians.
https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/group/msm/index.html
https://www.nzaf.org.nz/getting-tested/testing-month/hiv-risk-for-gay-men/
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/cdc-gay-men-2-population-67-all-new-hiv-cases
Keep in mind that the Free Society ideals are not necessarily perfect or good in the long-term.
I described the implications of situation of women in Free Societies in detail here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=622117&pagenumber=17#post16258806
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Keep in mind that the Free Society ideals are not necessarily perfect or good in the long-term.
😂
So, things like free speech, freedom of the press? Equal rights between men and women? Those aren't good forever, huh... what's the halflife on them?
It's all making sense now: You don't think free society is good, so that's why you like Islam... it's the antidote to free society. Gotcha... haha..
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
A couple points you're missing:1. Even non-fundamentalist Muslims still hold beliefs in doctrines that are in outright opposition to free liberal society, like death for apostates (that is not a doctrine in Christianity).
2. Another thing is that Christianity was not founded by a warlord nutcase, so it doesn't order its followers to wage jihad on infidels including dying in the process as a high, glorious honor.
Those are big differences. Yes, moderates don't take some of these things very seriously and that's good, but many of them would still be in favor of changing laws to make certain things like apostasy and homosexuality illegal (take a look at Saudi Arabia). And that is not conducive to free society. That is theocracy. I don't have exact poll numbers, but I guarantee if you took polls of Moderate Chrsitians vs. Moderate Muslims and asked, "Should the punishment from each respective religion for apostasy be death?" you'd get a lot more "Yeses" from the Moderate Muslims than you would from the Moderate Christians.
Point is they are not the same religion and to equate the two is foolish.
There are Christians in America who want to make homosexuality illegal. There are sitting elected representatives who suggested putting gays and lesbians in concentration camps. This notion that oppressive Muslim ideologies pose a greater threat than oppressive Christian ideologies in this country is just not true.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
There are Christians in America who want to make homosexuality illegal.
If memory serves, homosexual acts, though not people, ARE still listed as illegal according to State Law. They go by the name "sodomy", though, and usually remain unenforced except for special cases. Pretty sure Michigan has one, for instance. I'd stop just shy of betting money that Texas has one, too.
Originally posted by Adam_PoEThere are sitting elected representatives who suggested putting gays and lesbians in concentration camps.
I want to see proof of this one. Unless by "concentration camp" you merely allude to what I wrote above, which is that according to State Law homosexual acts can be punished, like any other breach of law, with jail time.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If memory serves, homosexual acts, though not people, ARE still listed as illegal according to State Law. They go by the name "sodomy", though, and usually remain unenforced except for special cases. Pretty sure Michigan has one, for instance. I'd stop just shy of betting money that Texas has one, too.I want to see proof of this one. Unless by "concentration camp" you merely allude to what I wrote above, which is that according to State Law homosexual acts can be punished, like any other breach of law, with jail time.
The recriminalization of homosexuality and the incarceration of gays and lesbians is part of the official platform of the Montana Republican party since the U.S. Supreme Court struck down laws against sodomy.
The pastor of Providence Road Baptist Church posted a video of a sermon in which he says he "wants to round gays up behind an electric fence and wait for them to die off."
These are people and groups with real political power and cultural influence in the United States, unlike members of a small and marginalized minority religion.
Originally posted by Robtard
Lets see, both condone slavery, rape and wholesale slaughter of men, women and children. I'd say neither is morally above the other.edit: forgot the wholesale slaughter of livestock
The acts you just mentioned...in the modern day which religion do you think condones those acts more?
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
There are Christians in America who want to make homosexuality illegal. There are sitting elected representatives who suggested putting gays and lesbians in concentration camps. This notion that oppressive Muslim ideologies pose a greater threat than oppressive Christian ideologies in this country is just not true.
Yeah, the Christian influence in America is a big problem, too. I agree. Luckily we have some also very deeply held and politically rooted liberal values that do pretty well at fighting back theocracy.
Originally posted by Surtur
The acts you just mentioned...in the modern day which religion do you think condones those acts more?
Yup, it's not just tolerated in Islam, it's downright encouraged. And Islam is also more creepily married to politics than Christianity is.
But again, why is everyone ignoring the fact that in Islam the punishment for apostasy is death? So free thought is outlawed in Islam. Christianity does not have this doctrine. So for me that makes Islam far more morally abhorrent than Christianity.
Originally posted by socool8520
^ It does tell you that you can go to Hell for thinking bad thoughts about your neighbor's wife when she wears a skimpy outfit. Not as bad as what you're talking about, but both seem to want you to turn off free thought for blind faith.
Not exactly. That's just a sin. Sins can be forgiven. You could even burn children alive and be saved as long as you repent and accept the Lord Jesus Christ into your heart before you die. You only go to hell if you don't accept Jesus into your heart and get saved.
Christianity does not kill apostates. Heretics at one point yes, but not anymore, and it's not a strict doctrine like it is in Islam.
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
😂So, things like free speech, freedom of the press? Equal rights between men and women? Those aren't good forever, huh... what's the halflife on them?
It's all making sense now: You don't think free society is good, so that's why you like Islam... it's the antidote to free society. Gotcha... haha..
1. Gender equality is good. I fully support this.
2. Freedom of speech is just a "narrative." We are responsible for our views and their repercussions.
3. Freedom of press sounds good as long as you are not on its receiving end. I am an advocate of "responsible press."
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2012/nov/09/balance-between-free-responsible-press
I do not condone homosexuality, cultural objectification of women and cohabitation - these are unhealthy practices with significant implications for the fabric of society in the long-term.
if that's what you think then you're not a real hardcore muslim
cause the real hardcore muslims have beard patrols. proven and documented in both Afghanistan under taliban rule and Iraq under Isis rule. And, if you don't have a beard/can't grow a beard, you're basically considered a woman to them thus rape might (will) ensue. And that, my friend, is not a fate I want. Not at all. I swear I don't.