Islam vs Christianity: Which is morally superior?

Originally posted by Surtur
Look there can be many factors that lead for people to behave this savagely. It isn't always a religion, but sometimes it is. Islam is one of those times.

We just can't ignore it, we can't say it's not Islam. It goes beyond mere savagery. They have rape rules. You can rape a married woman if she is your captive. That goes beyond the savage instinct inherent in all human beings.

This is honestly why I made my other thread about why this religion is so special. If Christians were committing various terror attacks across Europe and quoting scripture or screaming about God as they do it, people would not shy away from the religious aspect. What did Islam do to earn such special treatment?

I showed my hand and I do not mind it, I will fully admit: Islam is the problem, at least the main problem. Other religions are shitty, others have inspired violence. Now Islam seems to be at the top when it comes to it. I can't see why we should ignore it.

What other cultures were like is irrelevant to me, this is about Islam. They could be better or worse and hey if they were even shittier than Islam it's good they took a few baby steps forward to become a tad less shitty.

You personally do not give it special treatment, but our country seems to. They bend over backwards to avoid calling things Islamic extremism. I remember watching a recent interview where a guy kept shouting "how does it help to call it that?!". Who does that? Who argues something should not be properly labeled? It was liberals on MSNBC I think.

If Christians began blowing shit up all over Europe and shouting about God or Jesus, the Christian aspect would be brought up. With Islam, it's always something else. I still do not get why. What does this religion bring to the table? At least I learned that if someone writes a negative poem about me I can murder them.

Originally posted by Surtur
Who does that? Who argues something should not be properly labeled?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Trump and his cucks these days. 🙁

So when Obama didn't name radical Islamic terrorists as radical Islamic terrorists....you had the same problem?

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
Of course. I just think that people will latch onto the reasons that are convenient for their own ideological narrative. If you are someone who is against religion, then you will emphasize the religious element of violence wherever you find it.

Okay so how do you explain that 100% of Islamists/Extremists/Suicide Bombers (whatever you want to call them) are Muslim?

And combine that with the fact that we don't see Catholic or Taoist suicide bombers? Because the differences amongst religions matter a great deal.

And they have told us ad nauseam what they are doing and why they are doing it.

A simple reading of the Holy Qur'an and its doctrines of jihad easily explains this.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Okay so how do you explain that 100% of Islamists/Extremists/Suicide Bombers (whatever you want to call them) are Muslim?

And combine that with the fact that we don't see Catholic or Taoist suicide bombers? Because the differences amongst religions matter a great deal.

And they have told us ad nauseam what they are doing and why they are doing it.

A simple reading of the Holy Qur'an and its doctrines of jihad easily explains this.

that isn't true for extremists, and it's not technically true for suicide bombers either

but the extremist islamist groups have seized upon suicide bombing largely because it's an effective strategy when you are fighting an asymmetrical guerrilla war

the quran does not justify suicide bombing in any straight forward way, but the extremists are very good at coming up with theological rationalizations, just like any other religious zealot.

i know i recommended the book "the looming tower" before, but i want to recommend it again. it has a lot of insight about the origins of Al-Qaeda and in particular what I am thinking about right now is the explaination for how suicide bombing came into fashion with sunni militants. it is a relatively recent phenomenon. and the whole emphasis on "martyrdom" jihadi groups take is similarly recent. the reason this has become the norm for them is based more on military strategy than on the quran itself. they basically just think that the ends justify the means.

here's a pdf version of the book

http://www.unhas.ac.id/rhiza/arsip/TheLoomingTower.pdf

i have to go to work right now, but some other time i will look for the relevant passages myself. if you care to look yourself, just ctrl f and search for phrases like "suicide" and "martyr"

here's one of the passages i came across, talking about how Al-Qaeda and the sunni militants learned the strategy of suicide bombing from the Shia militants in Hezbollah.

Al-Jihad began its assault on Egypt with another attempt on the life
of the interior minister, Hasan al-Alfi, who was leading the crackdown
on Islamic militants. In August of 1993 a bomb-laden motorcycle
exploded next to the minister's car, killing the bomber and his accomplice.
"The Minister escaped death, but his arm was broken," Zawahiri
lamely noted.

It was another failure, but a significant one, because with this action
Zawahiri introduced the use of suicide bombers, which became the
signature of al-Jihad assassinations and later of al-Qaeda "martyrdom

185

operations/' The strategy broke a powerful religious taboo against suicide.
Although Hezbollah, a Shiite organization, had employed suicide
truck bombers to attack the American Embassy and the U.S. Marine
barracks in Beirut in 1983, such actions had never been undertaken by
a Sunni group. In Palestine, suicide bombings were virtually unknown
until the mid-nineties, when the Oslo Accords began to unravel.*
Zawahiri had been to Iran to raise money, and he had sent Ali
Mohammed, among others, to Lebanon to train with Hezbollah, so it is
likely that the notion of suicide bombings came from this source.
Another of Zawahiri's innovations was to tape the bomber's vows of
martyrdom on the eve of his mission. Zawahiri distributed cassettes of
the bomber's voice justifying his decision to offer his life.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
the quran does not justify suicide bombing in any straight forward way, but the extremists are very good at coming up with theological rationalizations, just like any other religious zealot.

You are fucking lying to yourself and ignoring the problem.

This is why demagogues like Trump are seizing power because we rational liberals are ignoring the problem...

.
.

lol. i'm trying to be reasonable with you but you aren't returning the favor. either start addressing the points i bring up or **** off.

What I don't think it reasonable is for someone to defend completely irrational beliefs that one doesn't even hold and even disagrees with, beliefs that lead to destructive behavior witnessed on a far-too-common basis.

I hear it claimed all the time that these suicidal notions are not supported in the Quran, but there is definitely plenty of justification that can be interpreted from the texts...

Quran 4:74 - Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fights in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

Quran 3:157 - And if ye are slain, or die, in the way of Allah, forgiveness and mercy from Allah are far better than all they could amass.

Quran 9:29 - Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

Quran 9:39 - If ye go not forth He will afflict you with a painful doom...

Quran 4:95 - Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame, etc.), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home). Unto each, Allah has promised good (Paradise), but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit (at home) by a huge reward;

And just a few examples of demonizing infidels...

Quran 2:191 - And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Haram (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

Quran 3:151 - We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they joined others in worship with Allah, for which He had sent no authority; their abode will be the Fire and how evil is the abode of the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers).

Quran 8:39 - And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

This is not really a debate. It's a fact. And to obscure the issue is dishonest and counterproductive. Does the text say directly, "Kill others by taking your own life"? I don't know, maybe not. But it doesn't have to be dangerous. And I'm sure if it did, apologists would probably still defend it.

None of those verses mention suicide. "being slain in battle" =! killing yourself in battle.

Suicide is considered a taboo in Islam as it is forbidden both in the Quran and the Hadiths, with the Hadiths describing people who commit suicide going to hell.

A verse in the Quran instructs;

"And do not kill yourselves, surely God is most Merciful to you."

— Qur'an, Sura 4 (An-Nisa), ayat 29 [18]
The prohibition of suicide has also been recorded in statements of hadith, (sayings of Muhammad). For example:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hell Fire (forever) and he who commits suicide by stabbing himself shall keep on stabbing himself in the Hell-Fire."

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 2:23:446

Originally posted by Patient_Leech

This is not really a debate. It's a fact. And to obscure the issue is dishonest and counterproductive. Does the text say directly, "Kill others by taking your own life"? I don't know, maybe not. But it doesn't have to be dangerous. And I'm sure if it did, apologists would probably still defend it.

I'm not being an apologist for Islam. There are plenty of things I will criticize the religion for. I just try to be fair and factual with my criticisms. I believe suicide bombings have taken off (as I've mentioned, very very recently, historically speaking) as they have proven an effective way to commit terrorism. There's an entire passage in the book I cited you that goes on about how the founding fathers of Al Qaeda actually struggled theologically with the concept of suicide bombing before eventually constructing their rationalization for why it was ok.

Ngl, some forms of Islamic extremism won't be found in Islam, I'll give it that. However, that's not enough to give Islam a pass.

I know it says not to kill yourself. But it's still a slippery slope. Being commanded to fight and die for Allah in hopes of reward promotes a very violent agenda. The problem stems from the belief that this nonsense is of some divine origin and must be obeyed. In other words Islam is the problem. So little nitpicking about what the verses technically say is of little importance when they overall promote such ridiculously obvious violence against non-believers (not to mention women and apostates).

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Ngl, some forms of Islamic extremism won't be found in Islam, I'll give it that. However, that's not enough to give Islam a pass.

Yup, even conceding that, calling Islam a "Religion of Peace" is ridiculous. #ICallBullshit

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
I know it says not to kill yourself. But it's still a slippery slope. Being commanded to fight and die for Allah in hopes of reward promotes a very violent agenda. The problem stems from the belief that this nonsense is of some divine origin and must be obeyed. In other words Islam is the problem. So little nitpicking about what the verses technically say is of little importance when they overall promote such ridiculously obvious violence against non-believers (not to mention women and apostates).

As such, military strategy seeps into the text. I will admit this is a particularly problematic aspect of the Quran, as taken in isolation and out of context, verses can easily be used to justify waging holy war at every opportunity. The way non-violent Muslims respond to this is by pointing to verses which seem to contradict that idea, and stressing that the book be taken as a whole, and that you keep the context of any given verse in mind when citing it.

Generally, both fundamentalist Islamist groups who want to promote terror as well as Christians and Atheists who want to smear Islam tend to like to instead take out a sentence that sounds juicy and read into it as much as they possibly can. Which is what I don't respect. That's not seeking an understanding of the text. It's simple fear mongering.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Yup, even conceding that, calling Islam a "Religion of Peace" is ridiculous. #ICallBullshit

So true. Islam is a Religion of submission, not peace.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
The book was written in a very violent context.

One doesn't need to be an Islamic text scholar to be honest about the connection between Muslim violence and Islam. The problem is not that it was written at a violent time in history. It should just be seen as history and nothing more. The problem is that so many millions of people see these texts as the holy word of the Creator of the Universe, which brings the violence of the 7th century into the 21st.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
That's not seeking an understanding of the text. It's simple fear mongering.

To deny the connection between Muslim violence and Islam is ridiculous and ignores the heart of the problem. I don't think that's fear mongering. I think it's honesty. It's a violent ideology promoting prejudice and intolerance because people see it as God's holy word. So I see the failure to criticize revealed religion as the heart of the problem.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
One doesn't need to be an Islamic text scholar to be honest about the connection between Muslim violence and Islam. The problem is not that it was written at a violent time in history. It should just be seen as history and nothing more.

The problem is that so many millions of people see these texts as the holy word of the Creator of the Universe, which brings the violence of the 7th century into the 21st.

To deny the connection between Muslim violence and Islam is ridiculous and ignores the heart of the problem. I don't think that's fear mongering. I think it's honesty. It's a violent ideology promoting prejudice and intolerance because people see it as God's holy word. So I see the failure to criticize revealed religion as the heart of the problem.

It seems like some have an agenda to promote the violent image while others have an agenda to promote this "it's a religion of peace" nonsense.

I would still be interested in the number of radical muslims people think there are. Even .1% would be 1 million.

The people who mainly promote it as a "religion of peace" are a) peaceful Muslims or b) liberal white knights.

I haven't said anything about it being a religion of peace, just to clarify. It certainly seems like the least likely religion to actually fit that description.