Multiversal Eternity vs. COIE Anti-Monitor

Originally posted by leonidas
i can def get what you're saying here, but for the sake of discussion i'll play devil's advocate for a second. we're essentially comparing 2 examples of 'infinity'. you're saying that in dc there were 2 sources of 'infinite' power for AM to draw from though, correct? hard to argue with that stance. the only issue i would possibly have deals with viewing the matter/anti-matter universes as multiverses in themselves. i'm not sure if the anti-matter universe WAS a multiverse, as opposed to just a very large universe. it seems like we could pretty easily view the combination of the matter/anti-matter parts of dc as just ONE multiverse, as opposed to seeing them as 2 separate multiverses, if you get what i'm saying.

if that's the pov you take, (that collectively they form one multiverse) i'm not sure we can say definitively that the dc multiverse>marvel multiverse. if we can't, it's not unreasonable to say eternity>AM only because AM lacked those last couple universes. as regards an anti-matter attack: not sure that would work tbh. in dc anti-matter was pretty much the end of everything, but marvel has its anti-matter universe--the negative zone, so anti-matter certainly isn't something...foreign to eternity.

based on your initial assessment it's easy to see why people might think AM stomps, but it really depends on the way you view the dc multiverse i think.

And don't forget that in the original COIE story lines every universe sprang one single universe and every time that happened each universe became weaker so that the sum total of all the universes in the multiverse combined only equaled the power of that one original universe. Lots of people believe that the more recent recaps of COIE recton the whole thing were each universe was less powerful because they didn't mention that each universe was less powerful, but IMO omission alone doesn't = a recton.

a similar argument can be made for the original marvel multiverse though... first firmament was originally a single universe that was fractured. all other mutliverses after the first one were reflections of this first fracturing. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
a similar argument can be made for the original marvel multiverse though... first firmament was originally a single universe that was fractured. all other mutliverses after the first one were reflections of this first fracturing. /shrug

Eternity wins for the fact that he doesnt get affected by anti matter.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Marvel never came right out and specifically said that each fracturing weakened the other universes though. DC did on panel. Honestly IMO the only reason to assume such a thing would be to first assume that the power of the multiverses in each company are equal and work backwards in one's interpretations with the intention of supporting that pre-determined conclusion. I'm not trying to call anyone out or anything like that because it all really comes down to how one wants to view things, I'm just throwing my 2 cents in on the matter cause it's been a while since I've done so.

lol

forum is sort of designed for throwing in 2 cents.... 👆

i remember something about successive universes being weakened, but it's been a while since i read coie with any real attention to detail. do you have a scan or issue number where this idea was clearly depicted?

Originally posted by leonidas
lol

forum is sort of designed for throwing in 2 cents.... 👆

i remember something about successive universes being weakened, but it's been a while since i read coie with any real attention to detail. do you have a scan or issue number where this idea was clearly depicted?

...But then if you look at pretty much any story in DC's history that deals with alternate universes(even the dozenS of issues that specifically retell the creation of the pre-crisis multiverse, and/or the events of COIE), nothing is EVER alluded to them being 'weakened' or whatever. They are just described as an infinite amount of regular ol' universes that exist on a separate vibrational plane than the mainstream universe... Same with Marvel's cosmology.

You'd almost need to have a personal vendetta against DC to seriously try and argue that their universes are in some way 'weaker' than Marvel's, tbh... Especially given that Marvel's multiverse(s) were spawned in the EXACT same way(ie. 'one became many', etc.) ermm

That said, I believe that, in general, ALL comic book universes are intended to be roughly equal in terms of overall size/scale/power: they are all infinite(or at least, expanding outward toward infinity at an exponential rate.) The only exception(s) would be pocket universes or fractional realities(duh)... At least IMO. /shrug

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Either way, this is a debate that I have never seen a reason to partake in over the years(for obvious reasons), and I am certainly not about to start now... I've said my 2 cents and will leave it at that. So please don't get offended if/when I don't respond back to you, goob -- I just don't really care enough to argue it at this point. 😛

Where's Mr Master to annoy Galan when you need him?

mmm...

Pretty sure I annoy him these days... mhmm

Originally posted by Galan007
...But then if you look at pretty much any story in DC's history that deals with alternate universes(even the dozenS of issues that specifically retell the creation of the pre-crisis multiverse, and/or the events of COIE), nothing is EVER alluded to them being 'weakened' or whatever. They are just described as an infinite amount of regular ol' universes that exist on a separate vibrational plane than the mainstream universe... Same with Marvel's cosmology.

You'd almost need to have a personal vendetta against DC to seriously try and argue that their universes are in some way 'weaker' than Marvel's, tbh... Especially given that Marvel's multiverse(s) were spawned in the EXACT same way(ie. 'one became many', etc.) ermm

That said, I believe that, in general, ALL comic book universes are intended to be roughly equal in terms of overall size/scale/power: they are all infinite(or at least, expanding outward toward infinity at an exponential rate.) The only exception(s) would be pocket universes or fractional realities(duh)... At least IMO. /shrug

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Either way, this is a debate that I have never seen a reason to partake in over the years(for obvious reasons), and I am certainly not about to start now... I've said my 2 cents and will leave it at that. So please don't get offended if/when I don't respond back to you, goob -- I just don't really care enough to argue it at this point. 😛

By the same token the appearance of LT in the What If where his ultimate attack was a sun going nova may or may not have pertinence in a generic thread involving LT, but if the thread is specifically about THAT particular LT appearance then it should be the only appearance that really matters. The entire multiverse that COIE Anti Monitor almost had the full power of was specifically noted on multiple occasions as being as powerful as 1 full universe in the arc in which he appeared.

Also I know you disagree with the assessment, but would you mind posting the scans talking about what I'm saying for leo to see?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Marvel never came right out and specifically said that each fracturing weakened the other universes though. DC did on panel. Honestly IMO the only reason to assume such a thing would be to first assume that the power of the multiverses in each company are equal and work backwards in one's interpretations with the intention of supporting that pre-determined conclusion. I'm not trying to call anyone out or anything like that because it all really comes down to how one wants to view things, I'm just throwing my 2 cents in on the matter cause it's been a while since I've done so.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Oh I can totally understand not wanting to argue about it. Way back when I used to be way into debating cosmic stuff(as I'm sure you remember) but eventually I decided that cosmology is about the dumbest thing to debate because in all honestly it's about the most inconsistent thing in either company. And I can totally understand that DC may have intended to change the way things stood after Crisis(even though I don't particularly agree that the omission constitutes a recton). But in threads like this where it's specifically COIE Anti-monitor that's being discussed the way the multiverse was layed out within that specific story arc seems particularly relevant.

By the same token the appearance of LT in the What If where his ultimate attack was a sun going nova may or may not have pertinence in a generic thread involving LT, but if the thread is specifically about THAT particular LT appearance then it should be the only appearance that really matters. The entire multiverse that COIE Anti Monitor almost had the full power of was specifically noted on multiple occasions as being as powerful as 1 full universe in the arc in which he appeared.

Also I know you disagree with the assessment, but would you mind posting the scans talking about what I'm saying for leo to see?

The bias is just laughable.

There's nothing to suggest the 'universe' was any weaker.
It's very clear in the context of COIE that what he described was a universe with a history that contained all the heroes in one, because the heroes are the defense mechanism of the universe/multiverse.

In the Pre-COIE era, Superman of Earth 1, Wonder Woman of Earth 2, JSA, the Marvel family of Earth S, the remnants of Earth X, etc that comprised the rebuilt post COIE-universe were all on different universes.

It was very much the point and concept of the entire story.

Grant used it again in Final Crisis.

At the time, the Monitor assembled the greatest assortment of heros ever by saving EArth1, 2, X, S,

At least that was how I took it.

But there's nothing in any other multiverse story before or after about space being any weaker.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Oh I can totally understand not wanting to argue about it. Way back when I used to be way into debating cosmic stuff(as I'm sure you remember) but eventually I decided that cosmology is about the dumbest thing to debate because in all honestly it's about the most inconsistent thing in either company. And I can totally understand that DC may have intended to change the way things stood after Crisis(even though I don't particularly agree that the omission constitutes a recton). But in threads like this where it's specifically COIE Anti-monitor that's being discussed the way the multiverse was layed out within that specific story arc seems particularly relevant.

By the same token the appearance of LT in the What If where his ultimate attack was a sun going nova may or may not have pertinence in a generic thread involving LT, but if the thread is specifically about THAT particular LT appearance then it should be the only appearance that really matters. The entire multiverse that COIE Anti Monitor almost had the full power of was specifically noted on multiple occasions as being as powerful as 1 full universe in the arc in which he appeared.

Also I know you disagree with the assessment, but would you mind posting the scans talking about what I'm saying for leo to see?

Hey I'm not following all the current Marvel stuff so they may have recently decided to do something along similar lines, I can't really speak on that. I'd have to check it all out to make an informed decision on what they're talking about.

Originally posted by Juntai
There's nothing to suggest the 'universe' was any weaker.
It's very clear in the context of COIE that what he described was a universe with a history that contained all the heroes in one, because the heroes are the defense mechanism of the universe/multiverse.

In the Pre-COIE era, Superman of Earth 1, Wonder Woman of Earth 2, JSA, the Marvel family of Earth S, the remnants of Earth X, etc that comprised the rebuilt post COIE-universe were all on different universes.

It was very much the point and concept of the entire story.

Grant used it again in Final Crisis.

At the time, the Monitor assembled the greatest assortment of heros ever by saving EArth1, 2, X, S,

At least that was how I took it.

But there's nothing in any other multiverse story before or after about space being any weaker.

In COIE it DID say each division made each universe weaker. And that's why whenever a positive matter universe was destroyed the AM universe became stronger as it expanded to fill the void. Now you're free to say that it hasn't/wasn't ever said before or sense(it's not like I've read every DC story ever), but within the arc that COIE AM appeared it was stated multiple times which IMO means that it's relevant when discussing threads specifically involving COIE AM.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Hey I'm not following all the current Marvel stuff so they may have recently decided to do something along similar lines, I can't really speak on that. I'd have to check it all out to make an informed decision on what they're talking about.

In COIE it DID say each division made each universe weaker. And that's why whenever a positive matter universe was destroyed the AM universe became stronger as it expanded to fill the void. Now you're free to say that it hasn't/wasn't ever said before or sense(it's not like I've read every DC story ever), but within the arc that COIE AM appeared it was stated multiple times which IMO means that it's relevant when discussing threads specifically involving COIE AM.

That said, there is no context to compare it to another reality.

Just because the one universe replicated is 'weaker' than the whole, and then reformed, doesnt mean weaker than a replicated Marvel universe, or any other fictional universe. Only 'weaker' than its own whole.

At the end of the day, what really matters is the feats.

i think this is the relevant scan:

https://imgur.com/a/jYIcZ

there may be other references as well, but the statement is pretty clear. that said, there's no real way to gauge how much weaker, or even what weaker means in this sense. but yeah, i agree with goob. i'd completely forgotten that point and he's right, as we're speaking about coie AM, the point is certainly valid. /shrug

Originally posted by Juntai
I did look back, and it did say it made the fabric weaker than it would be whole. I only remembered offhand the other line where he just said "somehow weaker" but needed to assemble the heros to stop it.

That said, there is no context to compare it to another reality.

Just because the one universe replicated is 'weaker' than the whole, and then reformed, doesnt mean weaker than a replicated Marvel universe, or any other fictional universe. Only 'weaker' than its own whole.

At the end of the day, what really matters is the feats.

DC was a multiverse during the COIE arc, as each universe was destroyed the remaining number of universes expanded to equate to the same infinity that the prior number of universes equated to.

This in no way changes the fact that AM was already one multiverse to begin with which was the anti multiverse, and by the end of it the AM had nearly absorbed all of the positive multiverse. The AM was megaversal

Originally posted by Board Walker
DC was a multiverse during the COIE arc, as each universe was destroyed the remaining number of universes expanded to equate to the same infinity that the prior number of universes equated to.

This in no way changes the fact that AM was already one multiverse to begin with which was the anti multiverse, and by the end of it the AM had nearly absorbed all of the positive multiverse. The AM was megaversal

Originally posted by darthgoober
No the Antimatter universe was simply one of the many universes created by the division of the original universe. The sum total of all the positive matter universes and the anti matter universe was 1 "whole" universe. Don't blame me, it's just the way it was written in the story.

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
[b]Ultimates 2 #9 Pt 2/2

[/B]

I wonder what your response would be.