Multiversal Eternity vs. COIE Anti-Monitor

Originally posted by darthgoober
Unless Marvel has come right out and stated that anytime a universe splits that it and the one it splits from is "weaker" than the original then what happened to the original universe in COIE doesn't apply it's universe. If we start coming out saying that some universes are stronger than others with nothing stated to support such a thing then we might as well throw all cosmic universal/multiversal debates off the forum. A universe is a universe unless specifically noted as happened in COIE. The entire DC multiverse during that arc was equal to 1 "whole" universe in power, thus COIE AM at the height of his power was just shy of being "universal" compared to other companies who haven't specifically laid their multiverses out in such a way. Now if people want to say that such a thing no longer applies because DC has changed the way they present their multiverse then I won't bother arguing the point because as I pointed out before cosmology is about the most inconstant thing in comics. But when specifically discussing COIE cosmology it was very clearly laid out for us in the arc.

Pre-Crisis DC = Marvel multiverse.
Post Crisis DC, the multiverse reborn as a single entity [for a short time] = Marvel multiverse.

If you have actual evidence that one of those universes of the silver age/bronze age multiverse is lesser than a Marvel one in any way, feel free to present it.

Its truly a level of desperation and bias to actually try to push some 'this company's universe is stronger than that one's universe' nonsense.

ok, i'm legit curious. let's say that is totally correct: dc=marvel wouldn't that then support the idea that eternity (current)>AM? if dc and marvel ARE equal (which i can totally get behind btw) AM ultimately lacked the power of a couple universes while eternity is ALL of marvel. seems that should imply eternity>AM and that has nothing to do with one universe having been weakened in whatever way was intended. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
ok, i'm legit curious. let's say that is totally correct: dc=marvel wouldn't that then support the idea that eternity (current)>AM? if dc and marvel ARE equal (which i can totally get behind btw) AM ultimately lacked the power of a couple universes while eternity is ALL of marvel. seems that should imply eternity>AM and that has nothing to do with one universe having been weakened in whatever way was intended. /shrug

Originally posted by abhilegend
So is Eternity which is shown during Ultimates.

I wonder what your response would be.

That's freaking weird... like really, really weird. I mean I can understand the idea of a single universe dividing it's total power among duplicate universes(meaning that the multiverse contains the same amount of power as ever) and I can under stand a universe duplicating without losing power kinda like Multiple Man does(meaning that the overall power in the multiverse increases as universes are formed), but the idea that the whole multiverse is outright LESS powerful than the original universe is just freaking bizarre and doesn't seem to make any logical sense. Even if we say that there's energy wasted in powering the superflow to account for 2 or more universes being less than half as powerful as the total energy available, the sum total of the multiverse should include the power of the superflow so that the power of the multiverse would still equal the power of all the universes combined.

Have they put out any kind of origin of the multiverse or anything to provide a more in-depth explanation of what Richards was talking about there?

Originally posted by Juntai
What you're not getting is, that just because the universe replicated is weaker than its own whole in DC, does not mean that the replicated multiverse is weaker than Marvels or any other fictional one. There is no point of reference for that comparison. It is only weaker as a multiverse compared to itself compacted as one.

Pre-Crisis DC = Marvel multiverse.
Post Crisis DC, the multiverse reborn as a single entity [for a short time] = Marvel multiverse.

If you have actual evidence that one of those universes of the silver age/bronze age multiverse is lesser than a Marvel one in any way, feel free to present it.

Its truly a level of desperation and bias to actually try to push some 'this company's universe is stronger than that one's universe' nonsense.

It's not an effort to downplay DC, it's an effort to use logic for an accurate effort. I can even prove it right now by saying that unless there's some kind of important context to abhi scans that DC's multiverse is actually more powerful than Marvels because apparently Marvel's loses power somewhere along the way that can only be regained by mergining into a single universe.

Originally posted by Juntai
Eternity is a multiverse. The Monitor represented the [positive matter] multiverse.
Anti-Monitor had power equal to the multiverse before taking infinite universes minus 5 and adding it to his own.

See I still have to disagree with you there. Not in the sense that I'm saying anything about a comparison between Eternity and AM because I have no idea what the Hell Marvel is doing at this point, but I disagree about AM somehow being more than multiversal. I way I see it there are two logical interpretations of comparison between the Monitor and the Anti-Monitor during COIE. The first one(that I personally believe) is that rather than the antimatter universe actually being equal to the combined power of the positive matter universes, it was simply that the character AM was equal to the character the Monitor. He wasn't actually functioning anywhere near abstract level power until he absorbed all the power from the antimatter universe towards the end of the series. That's why Supergirl was nearly able to kill him, he had his hands full when his Thunderers rebelled against him, had some serious issues with the Flash, and was dependant upon his machines to destroy the positive matter universes. Even after he absorbed the AM universe he still didn't just destroy any of the positive matter universes, he instead traveled to the dawn of time(which burned up MOST of his power) to reset everything and needed the power of Earth's heroes to do so.

I'm not sure what kind of justification DC used amongst thenselves to say that he and the Monitor were but they did. Maybe AM was willing to draw more power from his universe because he was more ruthless and cared less about the state of his universe. Maybe Monitor cared more about keeping the entire universe intact so he only sought to stalemate AM rather than destroy him and his universe because he(Monitor) was benevolent.

Alterantively, perhaps for whatever reason the Antimatter universe somehow got half the power from that 1 single universe. That still means that it's the power of 1 "whole" universe/divided multiverse at play within that arc because the antimatter universe was part of the multiverse, not something outside of it. So against any embodiment of a "whole" universe/divided multiverse(again I'm not talking Eternity because Marvel's not making sense right now) he'd still lose because he never had the power of a whole multiverse.

Originally posted by Juntai
Eternity is a multiverse. The Monitor represented the [positive matter] multiverse.
Anti-Monitor had power equal to the multiverse before taking infinite universes minus 5 and adding it to his own.

but the anti-matter universe evolved as a result of the initial universe breaking apart. that would mean it was already factored in as part of that whole initial universe. ie--anti-matter+positive matter=initial whole universe.

the only way to avoid the conclusion is to show that the anti-matter universe existed independently of the original universe and didn't come into being as a result of the fracturing caused by krona. but:

https://imgur.com/a/04aHR

it seems like the AM universe was born as a direct result of krona's experiment. tbh, i'd forgotten...ALL of that and i'm pretty surprised. i started out just playing devil's advocate, but now i'm not so sure at all. maybe i'm missing something but it seems that first whole universe was comprised of the totality of the AM universe and the positive universe.... /shrug

The anti-matter universe was born when the multiverse was born... It was essentially creation balancing itself out, if you will:
https://s26.postimg.org/m7seshpop/multi_15.jpg

And I am legit curious why some people seem to be cherry-picking a single scene, and acting like it is the one and only incontrovertible truth regarding DC's cosmology? There are literally dozenS of different retellings regarding DC's creation-event(along with COIE-proper) that mention absolutely NOTHING about the universes of the multiverse inextricably becoming 'weaker' when the fracture/expansion originally occurred.

Here are a few of said retellings, but as I said: there are dozens more...
https://s26.postimg.org/wwwwt9mq1/multi_1.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/yty8bl2rt/multi_2.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/vkjt54eo9/multi_3.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/3lpne9d1l/multi_4.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/c1ami0qix/multi_5.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/aeq0aj3ux/multi_6.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/mhvby3ex5/multi_7.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/ibahirfbd/multi_8.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/8pgx2go5l/multi_9.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/tdfkh79e1/multi_10.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/yat52bbd5/multi_11.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/72rph8c3t/multi_12.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/jnwrye24p/multi_13.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/krgwacmrt/multi_14.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/m7seshpop/multi_15.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/7gxmukll5/multi_16.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/6sosbmmvd/multi_17.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/rquy9pmq1/multi_18.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/b4de0mts9/multi_19.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/8lwadoxft/multi_20.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/5gbonhetl/multi_21.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/vfp8mxm4p/multi_22.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/rutd3phl5/multi_23.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/8filaloax/multi_24.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/kvfb4chmx/multi_25.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/3rlfhr9l5/multi_26.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/94a9vvxhl/multi_27.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/u2gftyxc9/multi_28.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/z3sf92u6h/multi_29.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/96u5iq155/multi_30.jpg

To further substantiate my point, I could also post scans where characters like Psycho Pirate and Mxy have resurrected/manipulated the pre-crisis multiverse...heck, I could even post scans from Vertigo cosmology as well...but there is really no need to go THAT overboard. I am simply saying that IF the universes were truly intended to have become 'weaker' when the multiverse expanded, don't you think that maybe a few of those scenes would have at least ALLUDED to such..? I mean, it IS a pretty darned important little tidbit if true, no..? But as mentioned: all that plethora of retellings DO imply is that the original creation fractured into an infinite number of near-identical alternate universes. Nothing more; nothing less.

*On a different but somewhat related note: Spectre was implied to have become even MORE powerful than the Presence itself during the crescendo of COIE:
https://s26.postimg.org/a76yrria1/image.jpg

So should that one cherry-picked scene serve as the end-all/be-all regarding Spectre's powerset(ie. absorbing the powers of a handful of mages ACTUALLY makes him more powerful than THE God), or is it possible that maybe some things should logically be regarded as outliers when weighed against the rest of established continuity..? IOW, exceptions -- not the rule..?

Just some stuff to think about for those who might be looking for the whole picture. srug

Boom!

geezus prep....

anyway @galan. i agree that the 'weakness' of the universes seems to have been forgotten, or certainly never clearly defined. like i said earlier, i don't even know HOW they would be weaker. how is one parallel universe 'weaker' than another one...? 😕 could be as simple as the beings who populate it i guess, but that difference would be essentially non-existent.

to me, as regards this particular battle, the supposed 'weakness' of the universes is a non-issue: it simply depends on how you see the totality of the pre-crisis multiverse. if the AM universe simply grew as a balance, it still seems to have stemmed directly from the fracturing of that first universe and was spawned by the power released at that time. even wayyyy back in GL 40, it's shown that the 'evil' is released when the universe is fractured by krona. based on that, it doesn't seem unreasonable to view the complete pre-crisis multiverse as being AM+positive. and if that's the case, current eternity>AM.

if you view the totality as being just the positive matter, and the AM universe wholly separate, then obviously AM>eternity. i just don't know how to reconcile that stance given the pretty explicit descriptions of the AM universe and its being created along with the parallel earths. shrug

Originally posted by darthgoober
That's freaking weird... like really, really weird. I mean I can understand the idea of a single universe dividing it's total power among duplicate universes(meaning that the multiverse contains the same amount of power as ever) and I can under stand a universe duplicating without losing power kinda like Multiple Man does(meaning that the overall power in the multiverse increases as universes are formed), but the idea that the whole multiverse is outright LESS powerful than the original universe is just freaking bizarre and doesn't seem to make any logical sense. Even if we say that there's energy wasted in powering the superflow to account for 2 or more universes being less than half as powerful as the total energy available, the sum total of the multiverse should include the power of the superflow so that the power of the multiverse would still equal the power of all the universes combined.

Have they put out any kind of origin of the multiverse or anything to provide a more in-depth explanation of what Richards was talking about there?

Originally posted by abhilegend
So is Eternity which is shown during Ultimates.

I wonder what your response would be.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So is Eternity which is shown during Ultimates.

I wonder what your response would be.

that def seems to indicate that the marvel multiverse was weak in the same way the dc universe was. but i'm not sure maker was right:

https://imgur.com/a/IVjXs

bm seems to think eternity was stronger when the universes were separate. that is backed up by the fact that it wasn't until eternity was once again made a multiverse that he was able to break free of the first firmament. he was also noted as appearing healthier once the maker's plan was reversed.

https://imgur.com/a/0FrjI

even this is a bit unclear though since while a multiverse eternity couldn't break first firmament's chains, but once he became a universe, he could. so, we have what appears to be directly contradictory info. as a multiverse he couldn't break his bonds. as a universe he couldn't break free of FF, so... shrug

i think the weakness argument can be tossed. too much unclear in both cases imo.

the dumbest thing of all in the scans you showed though was BP somehow conquering the tiger god. 😂

he then goes on to use the tiger god's power to literally shred logos to pieces. that means that BP, 1 on 1, defeated a being capable of wiping out the embodiment of multiversal law, the same entity, who effortlessly killed lt. and that was BEFORE chaos and order combined to become even more powerful.

and people wonder why i hate black panther. 😆

Originally posted by leonidas
geezus prep....

anyway @galan. i agree that the 'weakness' of the universes seems to have been forgotten, or certainly never clearly defined. like i said earlier, i don't even know HOW they would be weaker. how is one parallel universe 'weaker' than another one...? 😕 could be as simple as the beings who populate it i guess, but that difference would be essentially non-existent.

to me, as regards this particular battle, the supposed 'weakness' of the universes is a non-issue: it simply depends on how you see the totality of the pre-crisis multiverse.

That said, I personally don't see any reason why such vague 'evidence' should be regarded as the one and only truth regarding DC cosmology...especially when decades-worth of canon retellings of the creation-event/COIE make absolutely NO mention of the universes becoming 'weaker' when the expansion occurred. As mentioned, in the dozens of retellings I've read over the years(some of which are posted here), DC really makes NO distinction at all -- a universe is a universe is a universe. There is no discernible difference between them from a cosmological POV(ie. size/scale/power/etc.) /shrug

IOW, it doesn't make a universal/multiversal power in DC any 'lesser' than a universal/multiversal power in Marvel(which ultimately became the crux of this debate when goob first brought up that scan years ago.) I have always found THAT to be a ridiculous way for people to try and mindlessly lowball DC. 😘

But again: I really don't want anything to do with this side of the debate(it burned me out YEARS ago, lol.) I'm just throwing some of the baseline canon out there... People can do whatever the hell they want with it from there. 😛

Originally posted by leonidas
if the AM universe simply grew as a balance, it still seems to have stemmed directly from the fracturing of that first universe and was spawned by the power released at that time. even wayyyy back in GL 40, it's shown that the 'evil' is released when the universe is fractured by krona. based on that, it doesn't seem unreasonable to view the complete pre-crisis multiverse as being AM+positive. and if that's the case, current eternity>AM.

if you view the totality as being just the positive matter, and the AM universe wholly separate, then obviously AM>eternity. i just don't know how to reconcile that stance given the pretty explicit descriptions of the AM universe and its being created along with the parallel earths. shrug

The anti-matter universe was created as a direct result of the original multiversal fracture/expanse -- its purpose was essentially to balance-out the positive matter multiverse. So on one side of the coin you have the pre-crisis multiverse, which was comprised of an infinite amount of positive matter universes. On the other side of the coin you have the anti-matter universe to balance-out all the positive matter. ie. they are intimately connected; but wholly separate at the same time.

Originally posted by Galan007
I guess I'm not sure what you're asking/saying here, leo..? mmm

The anti-matter universe was created as a direct result of the original multiversal fracture/expanse -- its purpose was essentially to balance-out the positive matter multiverse. So on one side of the coin you have the pre-crisis multiverse, which was comprised of an infinite amount of positive matter universes. On the other side of the coin you have the anti-matter universe to balance-out all the positive matter. ie. they are intimately connected; but wholly separate at the same time.

i guess i'm not getting where YOU'RE getting the AM universe came into being for the sole purpose of balancing out the prime. it seems to me that the AM universe came into being at the breaking of that first universe, and was formed in the same way the other parallels were.

the "pot" of power, so to speak, that the first universe contained shattered into the prime AND anti-matter universes. that would mean the first universe was actually the sum total of BOTH universes. half the power created the positive matter multiverse and half went to create the AM universe.

you seem to be saying the first universe broke and expended ALL its power into the positive matter multiverse and that the AM universe just popped into being from....no where? it came to exist just to balance the positive? but where did the power for its formation come from if not the initial fracturing of that first universe? the things i've read seem to support both positive and antimatter coming from the initial breaking of that first universe so it seems reasonable to think both were powered BY that first universe....

Originally posted by leonidas
i guess i'm not getting where YOU'RE getting the AM universe came into being for the sole purpose of balancing out the prime. it seems to me that the AM universe came into being at the breaking of that first universe, and was formed in the same way the other parallels were.

Anywho, another factoid mentioned in the retelling is that Anti-Monitor was born with the anti-matter universe, THEN the original Monitor was born with the positive matter universe -- SOLELY to balance him out:
https://i.imgur.com/u1ulCh2.jpg
"...Then, as if in protest to some cosmic IMBALANCE, [Anti-Monitor's] doppelganger was spawned on that lifeless moon of Oa... That was the day the Monitor was born."

...And since BOTH characters essentially embody the anti-matter and positive matter cosmos' respectively, logic dictates that the cosmos' themselves were spawned out of the same basic necessity: balance.

Originally posted by leonidas
half the power created the positive matter multiverse and half went to create the AM universe.

I mean, I get that the whole 'weaker universes' thing was mentioned a few times throughout COIE itself, but unless I missed something, aren't you taking that concept to rather excessive levels here..? As you yourself have pointed out: even IF you believe the universes were indeed 'weaker', we have absolutely no clue HOW or WHY they were 'weaker'(even the few other statements we were given in COIE regarding the 'weaker universes' STILL don't explain this with ANY detail whatsoever.)

...Which is why your stance here is a bit perplexing to me. You're typically one of the first people who would disregard 'evidence' THIS thin..? 😕

Originally posted by leonidas
the dumbest thing of all in the scans you showed though was BP somehow conquering the tiger god. 😂

he then goes on to use the tiger god's power to literally shred logos to pieces. that means that BP, 1 on 1, defeated a being capable of wiping out the embodiment of multiversal law, the same entity, who effortlessly killed lt. and that was BEFORE chaos and order combined to become even more powerful.

and people wonder why i hate black panther. 😆

There are extreme inaccuracies in your above account.

Originally posted by Galan007
Woah, where was THIS stated? Have I been missing something HUGE, here..? 😑

I mean, I get that the whole 'weaker universes' thing was mentioned a few times throughout COIE itself, but unless I missed something, aren't you taking that concept to rather excessive levels here..? As you yourself have pointed out: even IF you believe the universes were indeed 'weaker', we have absolutely no clue HOW or WHY they were 'weaker'(even the few other statements we were given in COIE regarding the 'weaker universes' STILL don't explain this with ANY detail whatsoever.)

...Which is why your stance here is a bit perplexing to me. You're typically one of the first people who would disregard 'evidence' THIS thin..? 😕

i had to reread this a couple times but now i get your shock at my comment...

i wasn't even THINKING about the 'weaker universes' issue, and i didn't mean to imply the PMM was only 'half' as strong as the marvel multiverse, but i can see why you would think i was alluding to it. and i guess it sort of even makes some sense now that you put it out there. but what would 'a half strength multiverse' even mean? 😑 i used the term half, simply to help illustrate my point, nothing more.

my main point has always been that the PMU and the AMU both seem to have been born from the dissolution of the first universe, that's it. to me, it seems the first universe split into a positive matter multiverse and an antimatter universe. how the power released by the fracturing was distributed is irrelevant to me, and frankly, impossible to determine. i mean the AM was just a single UNIVERSE, but somehow the anti-monitor matched the multiversal monitor, so... shrug

bottomline: PMU + AMU SEEMS to equal the FIRST universe. not sure how else to reconcile the existence of the AMU. /shrug

for purposes of this thread though, it would mean eternity>AM because while both were mutliversal, eternity=FULL mutliverse, while AM=NEARLY full multiverse.

now, i still haven't gone back and reread the entire series--no time the last few days, so i may very well be wrong and missing some info. just based on a cursory look and some of what has been said here, this is how it looks to me atm. love for you to fill in missing pieces if they're out there because i'd actually like to admit to being completely wrong here. 👆

New 52, for example, was made 'weaker' by having the heroes lose their memories/not fighting together.

'Weaker' doesn't suddenly mean half of infinity - which would still mean infinity, btw.

agreed 100%. 👆

even if, for example, the PMM WAS made using only half the power of the FULL original universe, it wouldn't mean anything from a practical standpoint, and wouldn't mean anything in relation to the characters or....pretty well anything of any relevance that i can think of. /shrug