Ultimately, all of Jerec's pupils were killed by the Jedi Kyle Katarn, but the price was worth the reward.Jerec at last gained access to the valley, and for one lucid moment, absolute omniscience was his. The will of the Force, Chaos, the ancient civilizations of the Rakata and Xim, what lay beyond the galactic barrier, and the origins of the universe - - Jerec understood them all, and endowed with Force powers beyond imagination, he would have ruled accordingly.
--Dark Forces something (what's the source, Skillz?)
Scourge was going to present the evidence in person. If the Emperor suspected he was lying—or if he was simply powerful enough to see the truth—escape would be impossible. He was putting himself at great risk for the sake of the cause—something he never would have considered before he met Revan.
[...]
Thinking about that power gave Scourge pause. Like Revan, the Emperor understood the Force in ways Scourge never would. It was possible he experienced the same kinds of visions as the Jedi; it was also possible he could peer into Scourge’s mind and instantly know the truth of everything he was saying. Meeting him face-to-face could be tantamount to suicide.
No, Scourge thought. If that were the case, he would have sensed Nyriss’s betrayal long ago.
As powerful as the Emperor might be, he was not omniscient.
--The Old Republic: Revan
It doesn't work. How sad 🙁
Ultimately, all of Jerec's pupils were killed by the Jedi Kyle Katarn, but the price was worth the reward.Jerec at last gained access to the valley, and for one lucid moment, absolute omniscience was his. The will of the Force, Chaos, the ancient civilizations of the Rakata and Xim, what lay beyond the galactic barrier, and the origins of the universe - - Jerec understood them all, and endowed with Force powers beyond imagination, he would have ruled accordingly.
^^^^^ That's not hyperbole.
Originally posted by AncientPower
immortality, which is what Vitiate gained. Not invulnerability, but immortality nonetheless.
That would be a strong nope:
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Encyclopedia and codex state the ritual merely prolonged his life:And both Encyclopedia and codex say immortality was still the as-of-yet unattained true goal:
So... nah.
Originally posted by AncientPower
How sad that Scourge's POV is fallible.
It is fallible, sure, but that's not a valid reason to dismiss something in itself. Scourge is pretty much on the money here. Vitiate isn't omniscient; this much should be very clear and not need any quote to confirm it, but at least it puts the burden of proof on those who support the scaling.
By the way, omniscience isn't immortality, which is what Vitiate gained. Not invulnerability, but immortality nonetheless.Apples and oranges, Az.
Um, nice way to debunk your own argument and scaling by admitting the result of the rituals weren't even remotely the same and thus can't be compared. Apples and oranges indeed.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That would be a strong nope:
Nathema: Once known as Medriaas, Nathema was an agriworld of the Sith Empire at a time when Sith also controlled the Chorlian sector. An ancient Dark Lord of the Sith named Darth Vitiate destroyed all life on Nathema with a ritual designed to grant him immortality. A transcription of this ritual was recorded by Darth Revan and served as the inspiration for Lord Kaan's thought bomb on Ruusan.
- Star Wars: Force and Destiny - Core Rulebook
Hm, strange that it seems as if you're arguing semantics, he had not yet achieved omnipotence, but he did achieve immortal longevity and is clearly immune to the ravaging damages of the dark side.
Originally posted by Azronger
It is fallible, sure, but that's not a valid reason to dismiss something in itself. Scourge is pretty much on the money here. Vitiate isn't omniscient; this much should be very clear and not need any quote to confirm it, but at least it puts the burden of proof on those who support the scaling.Um, nice way to debunk your own argument and scaling by admitting the result of the rituals weren't even remotely the same and thus can't be compared. Apples and oranges indeed.
So I guess the above quote, which is absolute confirmation that the Thought Bomb is a lesser variant of the Nathema Ritual, which had many multiples more power and complexity than what it inspired, simply doesn't exist.
The quote doesn't even imply that the Thought Bomb is lesser than the Nathema ritual, let alone directly state it. 😬
Originally posted by AncientPower
Hm, strange that it seems as if you're arguing semantics, he had not yet achieved omnipotence, but he did achieve immortal longevity and is clearly immune to the ravaging damages of the dark side.
"Designed to" grant him immortality.
Which, according to the multiple sources I cited above, didn't actually happen.
Except it clearly did, you're nitpicking so hard the scalp is bleeding.
He gained immortality in terms of longevity. Age and the ravages of time, were no longer a factor to him.
What he later sought out was genuine immortality and omnipotence, two different degrees of immortality. But again, semantics. Nothing but semantics.
Oh and, it actually confirms that Revan's transcription of the ritual in question is indeed exactly what Bane offered Lord Kaan.
The difference is, Kaan and his hundred Sith had a few hours at best. Vitiate had 8,000 full Sith Lords and spent a month enacting it.
The actual damage inflicted is wildly different as well, there were Force users besides Bane who survived, as well as many non-Force sensitives. Only the Sith and Jedi were absorbed into the Thought Bomb, unlike Vitiate. Who, besides 8,000 Sith Lords, absorbed every iota of flora and fauna on the planet, as well as the Force energy of the planet. Reducing the entire planet to a void in the Force.
The Valley of the Jedi in question is so powerful due to the Thought Bomb, which is what would've made Jerec so powerful.
The Nathema Ritual is so clearly and obviously more powerful and of far greater magnitude that there's really no arguing this.
facepalm
I'm not nitpicking, you're lying.
You first claimed that Vitiate was immortal. That's a lie: the ritual only "prolonged his life" and "vastly" increased his powers. Impressive? Sure. But that's hardly immortality and omniscience.
You then claimed the quote you cited confirms the Nathema ritual is absolute confirmation that the Thought Bomb is the "lesser variant" of the Nathema ritual. That's a lie: all it says is that it served as "inspiration." Does serving as inspiration somehow make the Death Star more powerful than Starkiller Base?
Feel free to make your case, but dont lie.
Are you even capable of that? 😬
Originally posted by The_Tempestrekt
facepalmI'm not nitpicking, you're lying.
You first claimed that Vitiate was immortal. That's a lie: the ritual only "prolonged his life" and "vastly" increased his powers. Impressive? Sure. But that's hardly immortality and omniscience.
You then claimed the quote you cited confirms the Nathema ritual is absolute confirmation that the Thought Bomb is the "lesser variant" of the Nathema ritual. That's a lie: all it says is that it served as "inspiration." Does serving as inspiration somehow make the Death Star more powerful than Starkiller Base?
Feel free to make your case, but dont lie.
Are you even capable of that? 😬
Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalmI'm not nitpicking, you're lying.
You first claimed that Vitiate was immortal. That's a lie: the ritual only "prolonged his life" and "vastly" increased his powers. Impressive? Sure. But that's hardly immortality and omniscience.
You then claimed the quote you cited confirms the Nathema ritual is absolute confirmation that the Thought Bomb is the "lesser variant" of the Nathema ritual. That's a lie: all it says is that it served as "inspiration." Does serving as inspiration somehow make the Death Star more powerful than Starkiller Base?
Feel free to make your case, but dont lie.
Are you even capable of that? 😬
Except I just showed you a much more recent quote stating that the ritual was designed to grant him immortality, we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was infact successful. As numerous sources confirm.
You're nitpicking by claiming that eternal life, though not omniscience or invulnerability, doesn't make him immortal. 😬
im·mor·tal·i·ty
ˌi(m)ˌmôrˈtalədē/
noun
the ability to live forever; eternal life.
"eating the fruit gave the gods immortality"
synonyms: eternal life, everlasting life, deathlessness; indestructibility, imperishability
"the immortality of the gods"
But let's also ignore the fact that Lord Scourge and Vitiate's Hand weren't all bestowed with eternal life by Vitiate too, right?
Lord Scourge was rewarded the title of the Emperor's Wrath and an eternally agonizing immortality.―Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia
Servants of the Hand share their Master's longevity, living untouched by age for centuries under his command.
―Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia
The resources and results of the Nathema Ritual are exponentially greater than the resources and results of the Thought Bomb. The entire Thought Bomb ritual was hastily thrown together by Lord Kaan and the remaining Sith, infact it was so shoddily done that it killed him too.
The conclusion here is obvious, I don't need to argue it with you to somehow prove it either.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Except I just showed you a much more recent quote stating that the ritual was designed to grant him immortality, we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was infact successful. As numerous sources confirm.
You're still lying: the only thing that numerous sources confirm is that Vitiate was not immortal.
Originally posted by AncientPower
You're nitpicking by claiming that eternal life, though not omniscience or invulnerability, doesn't make him immortal. 😬
You're still lying: Vitiate's lifespan is described by numerous sources as merely being "prolonged" and "extended."
Originally posted by AncientPower
But let's also ignore the fact that Lord Scourge
The codex entry on Scourge says that his life was merely "unnaturally prolonged" thanks to "perverse technology" and "his master's dark side powers."
But if you want to hang your hopes on the encyclopedia quote, by all means: it still doesn't confirm Vitiate was immortal.
Originally posted by AncientPower
and Vitiate's Hand weren't all bestowed with eternal life by Vitiate too, right?
You're still lying: the quote says they share "their Master's longevity" and were "untouched by age for centuries," not that they were immortal.
Originally posted by AncientPower
The resources and results of the Nathema Ritual are exponentially greater than the resources and results of the Thought Bomb. The entire Thought Bomb ritual was hastily thrown together by Lord Kaan and the remaining Sith, infact it was so shoddily done that it killed him too.The conclusion here is obvious, I don't need to argue it with you to somehow prove it either.
Not true. If you take what is said about the Valley as literal - that Jerec was transformed into an omniscient superbeing - then the Valley is clearly a far greater nexus than the one at Nathema, or at the very least what Vitiate stood to gain from the process was significantly less than what Jerec attained:
Originally posted by The_Tempest
[list]
[*]Assuming you're taking the quotes about Jerec's omniscience from the Valley of the Jedi at face value, then I'd argue it's conclusive proof that the Valley of the Jedi/Thought Bomb is "infinitely" more impressive than what happened on Nathema, since it only "vastly" increased Vitiate's abilities as a dark side practitioner and afforded him neither immortality or omniscience.
[*]Your assessment of Vitiate slaying the Dark Council members in a flash is disingenuous. This may very well have been a trap - not a demonstration of casual, unprepped power. We don't know how the confrontation would have gone had Vitiate not known about it ahead of time.
[/list]
Besides which, according to the Wizards article that the blog quoted for its assessment of Jerec, the Valley was the site of significantly more power than what was present at Nathema:
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Feel free to make your case, but dont lie.Are you even capable of that? 😬
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That would be a strong nope
I'm not lying at all, you're just being purposely obtuse for the sake of your argument.
His life being extended and his life being extended by only a certain point are two different things. You continue to cling to the state that his life was prolonged for centuries, yet this is not necessarily a limitation on the actual extension of his life, because if it was only some centuries, why's he clearly alive over a millennia later?
Because there is no actual contradiction here, you're trying to interpret one whereas the most recent source on the issue, which I've provided, clearly states that the ritual in question was designed to grant him immortality. We know for a fact it was a success, if it wasn't then he wouldn't have had his life extended.
And if you're desperate enough to dive into technicalities, then let's analyse the fact that the Hands went centuries untouched by age, meaning they didn't age whatsoever, ergo they were booned with eternal life. Exactly the same can be said of Scourge, who repeatedly refers to his long life as immortality too.
But please, continue making claims that I'm lying when the only actual issue here is you trying to weasel a contradiction into this debate, when there isn't one.
On the hilarious claim that the Valley of the Jedi is a greater nexus, I would remind you that Nathema was infact stated to be consumed by the largest dark side nexus ever, a nexus which was far more potent in its destructiveness and absorbant nature than any other on record.
Said Wizards article contradicts other sources unfortunately.
But no, even if that were true, I'd like to remind you that the Nathema Ritual resulted in the complete destruction and absorbance of all life and Force energy on Nathema and around it. So whilst there were more Force users, the Force itself was absorbed and reduced to a void by Vitiate. That's literally millions of times more Force energy.
Nathema being the largest (you can dispute whether that means the most powerful) dark side nexus up to its time doesn't make it more powerful than future nexuses such as the Valley of the Jedi, nor ones that aren't dark side nexuses, such as, again, the Valley of the Jedi. Note that TOR: E is an in-universe, fallible source with a limited perspective that fails to even take into account other nexuses of the time like the Pool of Knowledge and the Font of Power. That statement isn't absolute to begin with.
Not sure if you're grasping what Temp's saying. I'm completely befuddled as to how it would be hilarious to claim the Valley of the Jedi to be a greater nexus than Nathema, when:
a) The Valley of the Jedi stores the collected power of dozens of thousands of Jedi and Sith, whereas Nathema only has 8000. That's assuming you can equate the contribution of each slain Jedi/Sith to their respective nexus. Sure, there's also the regular population and the plants and vermin, but there's no reasonable basis to assume that would make up for the many thousands of Force users' difference. Especially since most sources refer to the 8000 Sith Lords being the primary source of power for Vitiate, suggesting that the other stuff is comparatively paltry or outright negligible by comparison. As for him shredding the fabric of the Force there, that's nice but just a byproduct of the ritual. No source indicates that he gained that power for himself.
b) The Valley of the Jedi has long been purported online to be identified (or at least widely believed in-universe) as the most powerful Force nexus ever. Don't have a source on-hand but it's worth mentioning.
c) If you're assuming the Valley of the Jedi afforded Jerec literal omniscience, then evidently whatever Nathema afforded Vitiate doesn't compare. At no point in the 1300 years after Nathema does Vitiate display anything resembling or equalling omniscience. This isn't even an argument.
