Captain America (Steve Rogers)

Originally posted by cdtm
Taskmasters a jobber. 😛

You can go across Cap and Bat Family history and find plenty of eyebrow raising feats (Just recently after Darkseid War, these metal dog like things were dodging Barry "I see f'n attoseconds" Allen, then Batman punch's one square in the nose. Barry asks "HOW DID YOU DO THAT?!??", and Bats smugly says "You need to hit them where they're going to be." 😱

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

Tell that to Tony 😄

lol

he would hardly have faced a superhuman by that time, let alone some of the martial artists he's been forced to face since then.

point stands--current cap hasn't been out skilled by any of these supposed martial artists. a person also doesn't have to be a traditional martial artist to be a great h2h opponent either. cap is a blend of many different forms but just because he doesn't fight like bruce lee doesn't mean he wouldn't adapt to that style and kicj lee's ass enforcing his own style on him.

again, proof is in the feats. if there was some proof these guys were all much better than he was, fine. evidence does not support that conclusion so sticking to the opinion seems pretty illogical. are some better than he is? maybe, but there isn't anyone on that list even CLOSE to twice as he is.

Maybe not directly outskilled..

He did look significantly less adept against an Aleph then Shang did. Caught outrighf with his blue pants down.

And come to think of it, Logan HAS directly beaten him in a fight. 👆

Originally posted by leonidas
lol

he would hardly have faced a superhuman by that time, let alone some of the martial artists he's been forced to face since then.

Wrong. Remember his time in Invaders.

Sure, logically hundreds-thousands of appearances in many titles should contribute to heroes having much greater experience, but this "getting sloppy in heroic age" thing is being mentioned in other titles (like Moon Knight and Wolverine), too. Not exactly a new thing.

This topic can have its own thread, when you think of it.

--
Back to the "basic technique" thing - yes, as lifeslash or someone said already, being flashy doesn't always mean being the most effective.

Wolverine's Manifest Destiny mini showed us that:

[quore]person also doesn't have to be a traditional martial artist to be a great h2h opponent either. [/quote]
Exactly.

cap is a blend of many different forms but just because he doesn't fight like bruce lee doesn't mean he wouldn't adapt to that style and kicj lee's ass enforcing his own style on him.

This thread isnt about who kicks who's ass, its about who's got the most skill, though, and nearly everyone's either ignoring that, or cant wrap their brains around what you pointed out in the first part of your post i quoted.

Originally posted by riv6672
[quore]person also doesn't have to be a traditional martial artist to be a great h2h opponent either.

This thread isnt about who kicks who's ass, its about who's got the most skill, though, and nearly everyone's either ignoring that, or cant wrap their brains around what you pointed out in the first part of your post i quoted. [/QUOTE]

Oscar De La Hoya is a lot more skilled then Mike Tyson. Pretty clear who would win in a fight at their peaks.

Nearly EVERYBODY is more skilled then Butterbean, yet he had a pretty good Tough Man record..

That doesnt negate anything i said. I'd watch that fight, though!

Originally posted by cdtm
Cassandra Cain enhanced?

Has she been reclassified or something? Her original solo series took pain to claim biologically, she's normal. It's the bizarre training that accounts for her skills, which could be said of any hardcore martial artist..

And spot on about Danny. I was using T'challa's quote by way of explanation, but that doesn't mean I believe it.. 😉

The recent Iron Fist match with a possessed Shang Chi actually had them locked in a borderline stalemate for awhile, until the villain got impatient and yelled at Shang that he's supposed to kill Iron Fist, not play with him..

Originally posted by riv6672
And someone with the SS shouldnt be ranked higher than other MA, because SS enhances his physical stats and makes his basic fighting style devastatingly effective.

Again, just one of those agree/disagree situations.
Was a fun conversation though. 👆

That's why I haven't been bringing up physical feats, but rather denotations of skill. Like it being outright stated that he's more skilled than Shang Chi. His arsenal goes way beyond basic fighting techniques, we're talking about someone who's done stuff like using a pressure point on the forehead to blind Hank Pym when he(Cap) was trapped in Red Skull's body(and this was Redskull's aged body, not the cloned body of Cap).

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

Originally posted by riv6672
That doesnt negate anything i said. I'd watch that fight, though!

I was agreeing with you by posting lesser skilled guys who could beat more skilled.

Originally posted by shadowknight
Orphan or CC is both enhanced and not enhanced. Let me explain when she first became Batgirl over 12 yrs ago DC hinted pretty strongly that her speed and reflexes were just short of the theoretical limits of human anatomy. But the reason I say she isn't she doesn't have the insane feats like Cap of throwing a shield 10,000 ft in the air. Nevertheless people like Batman & Cap have demonstrated insane lvl of STR & Durability. My personal opinon is she's enhanced speed, reflexes and agility wise. But not durability and STR wise.

Her striking power is good enough to level a prison wall, punch through bullet proof prison glass, and KO a meta that took out Batman, so if she's physically weak she somehow manages good striking feats.

Originally posted by cdtm
I was agreeing with you by posting lesser skilled guys who could beat more skilled.

Originally posted by cdtm
Her striking power is good enough to level a prison wall, punch through bullet proof prison glass, and KO a meta that took out Batman, so if she's physically weak she somehow manages good striking feats.

Cap's physical edge gives him extra speed and reflexes. These contribute greatly to skill. In equal bodies many top MA would be him in h2h consistently.

Originally posted by h1a8
Cap's physical edge gives him extra speed and reflexes. These contribute greatly to skill. In equal bodies many top MA would be him in h2h consistently.

Originally posted by deathslash
Shang Chi, Iron Fist, Wolverine, Blade, and Daredevil all prove this statement to be false.

None of that is true. 😂

There's so much more (and more recent) lip service to Cap having elite skill versus comments on him being a basic/novice fighter... but even if we put that aside as equal evidence, or worthless commentary, no evidence supports any other MA (besides some versions of Karate Kid and maybe Bats 1M) being twice the skill level of Cap.

For the most skilled fighters, it's more like +/- 5-10 points on this scale.

Originally posted by cdtm
None of that is true. 😂

Originally posted by Smurph
There's so much more (and more recent) lip service to Cap having elite skill versus comments on him being a basic/novice fighter... but even if we put that aside as equal evidence, or worthless commentary, no evidence supports any other MA (besides some versions of Karate Kid and maybe Bats 1M) being twice the skill level of Cap.

For the most skilled fighters, it's more like +/- 5-10 points on this scale.

Mantis and Val Armorr have an established history of fighting herald level beings. Through nothing more then pure skill.

When you can legitimately fight Superman or Thor with human level stats, and without it being PIS, then yes, you're more then twice as skilled as Cap.