Originally posted by MythLord
did he now?
https://static4.comicvine.com/uploa...re+powerful.png
Bless Erkan's soul. 😇
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
The word you're looking for here is power, not potential. Again, Maul has had time to grow with power and atm has relativity with Rebels Vader. I'll repeat, Vader several years pre-rebels has done a better version of TCW Maul's best feat. Remember, TCW Maul is more powerful than TPM Maul. Applying logic, the more powerful combatant here is Rebels Maul.
Raw Power comes from level of training + Potential.
You've provided nothing from Rebels Maul to show/prove he's =/> TPM Maul in skill/mastery.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I'll get to mindset later...There's a key part you're missing here: Maul is still Maul.
Hence, unless you can prove Maul has degraded, Maul would get any feats earlier versions of Maul have.
facepalm
He got chopped in half, is mentally broken, never progressed in his own training and aged 30 years.
I mean Common sense is still a thing right?
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
And unsuprisngly, you completely ignored the argument I made earlier for Rebels Maul being more powerful. And yes, generally, gaining knowledge and mastery correlates with more powerful.
Except you've not proven he gained any force knowledge or mastery.
Given how he fights (losing to Kanan on what you repeatedly call a DS Nexus, getting 3 shotted by Old Ben), it's pretty clear his augmentation hasn't improved. It's for you to Prove it's even on par with his physical prime where he was grappling with Rathtars.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Not to mention that aside from what someone reading what you've said what you think, Maul only spent a fraction of his time stranded on Malachor. He spent his time before that travelling the galaxy and looking for sh!t, troubling the empire to the point that he was considered a "shadow" and struck fear into all the inqusitors, and then after Malachor, was engaged in multiple fights, and was searching the galaxy. So this notion that Maul was inactive is simply false.So I'm at a loss for what you reasoning for Maul having degraded here is.
You see, you're just writing and not actually backing anything up with feats or evidence.
The Inquisitors feared Maul. Yeah no shit. He's not degraded THAT Much.
Wither confirmed that no matter how much he degrades his classical training (at the kind of level he had) will always keep him above the likes of Inquisitors and Kanan. The fact that he actually lost to Kanan (even if it was once and circumstantial) though just goes to show what a "shadow" of his former self he now is.
So yeah the Inquisitors were right to call him "shadow".
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Nice false equivalency bro 👆
The problem with Anakin was he wasn't committed to the darkside. He was conflicted, "vulnerable between two worlds".The opposite is true for Maul who's commitment to the darkside strengthened as both his hate and anger grew.
That this would make a darksider weaker is up to you to prove.
Again, Maul is still the same character, so you need to prove there's a degradement for Maul to suddenly not to be capable of what versions of him who have had less time to grow are capable of.
Filoni (and canon) have made it pretty damn clear that state of mind and emotional state do effect combat performance.
There's a reason why Filoni keeps equating Maul's loos to Kenobi with Maul being Mentally broken.
*Context is for Kings*
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I presented a power based argument with my first quote.
So you speaking is supposed to be an argument now? You need to repeat your arguments once or twice, especially when you're so severely lacking in them.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
There's also the matter of the Feloni quote. I'm sure you will adamantly repeat ad nausea how you've debunked it. Though, I'd advise you to set a higher bar for yourself. Trying to apply the context of a separate quote from a different person to Feloni's statement is a pretty weak rebuttal. 🙁
Yes it's been debunked. But you just like putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "i'm not listening"
Filoni was clearly talking about "growth" in the context of the number of times Maul and Kenobi have already fought each other. This is the Only Interpretation which is supported by Gilroy's comments, and doesn't contradict already Established Canon.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Yup...https://static4.comicvine.com/uploa...re+powerful.png
Bless Erkan's soul. 😇
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If TPM Maul wins, that means Rebels Maul atrophied so badly that he lost all of his power gains between S4-5 of TCW/SoD, and then declined further as to become weaker than his 22 year old self. And in addition, it means his improved experience and wisdom matters so little that it wouldn't swing the fight in his favour, despite the fact he is fighting a less experienced version of himself, who he knows inside and out.
Somehow, I find all of that unlikely, but if anyone has any evidence I'd be interested in seeing it.
Originally posted by |King Joker|
I think people are just annoyed at Maul's perceived low showings in Rebels so they're trying to compensate by lowballing him so as not to hurt the standing of previous incarnations of Maul. That, and maybe another reason. 😗
Originally posted by ILS
If TPM Maul wins, that means Rebels Maul atrophied so badly that he lost all of his power gains between S4-5 of TCW/SoD, and then declined further as to become weaker than his 22 year old self. And in addition, it means his improved experience and wisdom matters so little that it wouldn't swing the fight in his favour, despite the fact he is fighting a less experienced version of himself, who he knows inside and out.Somehow, I find all of that unlikely, but if anyone has any evidence I'd be interested in seeing it.
As far as Canon is concerned, it’s only by The Lawless/SOD the Maul maybe on par with/superior to his TPM self in combat.
Filoni confirmed while Maul had those Chicken legs they not only severely limited his acrobatics and martial arts but he was also still in recovery from being put back together.
So that whole period was him getting back into form. Legends is a different story.
Originally posted by Darth ThorTrue, there's little information on Maul's power growths/declines in canon.
As far as Canon is concerned, it’s only by The Lawless/SOD the Maul maybe on par with/superior to his TPM self in combat.Filoni confirmed while Maul had those Chicken legs they not only severely limited his acrobatics and martial arts but he was also still in recovery from being put back together.
So that whole period was him getting back into form. Legends is a different story.
Originally posted by |King Joker|
So where's the actual concrete evidence Maul declined? Are everyone's arguments really just "he got older"?
That and a serious lack of feats. Plus some low showings.
Add that to Witwer and Maul himself both referring to his Prime being when he was a lot younger.
Plus it is what they initially hinted at. That he was an old, weak and past his prime warrior. So it’s not something people have just brought up out of nowhere.
A lack of feats? Lel. Low showings is also hilarious. The only time he's even remotely outclassed is against Obi-Wan and Bullshit-Kanan, which is not exactly a low showing.
No one ever hints at Maul being weak either. That's something people have just assumed because they're trying to make sense of Rebels shit writing that tries too hard to "poetic."
Originally posted by Darth ThorRebels isn't really a medium where Maul can actually get a lot of feats, though. He was a side character in Rebels and was basically used as a plot device, and unlike where he got a large chunk of his feats beforehand, there aren't many fully-trained Jedi roaming about for Maul to fight against. So using his lack of feats as an argument doesn't really make sense. As for his low showings, they're all pretty much incredibly circumstantial.
That and a serious lack of feats. Plus some low showings.Add that to Witwer and Maul himself both referring to his Prime being when he was a lot younger.
Plus it is what they initially hinted at. That he was an old, weak and past his prime warrior. So it’s not something people have just brought up out of nowhere.
I'll need quotes with context so I know what you're referring to.
Originally posted by |King Joker|
Rebels isn't really a medium where Maul can actually get a lot of feats, though. He was a side character in Rebels and was basically used as a plot device, and unlike where he got a large chunk of his feats beforehand, there aren't many fully-trained Jedi roaming about for Maul to fight against. So using his lack of feats as an argument doesn't really make sense. As for his low showings, they're all pretty much incredibly circumstantial.I'll need quotes with context so I know what you're referring to.
It's more about the fact that he's a broken man by the time of Rebels, he has lost all his purpose (which was what initially strengthened him during the Clone Wars) and power (his underworld syndicate). When we see him on Malachor he has been trapped there for years, without any training and has visibly degraded in the physical department. He seems to have advanced in terms of TP (Illusions, mind probing) but that could just be part of his original Sith training at the hands of Sidious.
Maul's arrogance is written as a serious problem in Canon, it shows up in most of his fights. That appears to be why he was thrown by Kanan, alongside Kanan's oneness-esque boost. And he was essentially tricked by Kenobi into attacking Qui-Gon's fighting style, whereas Kenobi fully anticipated Maul's approach and responded accordingly. Which, needless to say, is a level of personal knowledge one can only have after fighting Maul 2 or 3 times and observing his fights against other characters - something every other character in SW lacks for the most part.
Aside from those, Maul performed as a rough equal for Ahsoka, and is implied by sw.com to be her superior. And as we saw, Ahsoka gave Vader a good challenge. In addition, as of TCW, Filoni has outrighted stated Maul's training/skill level is "kind of in Vader's realm", opposed to the Ventress/Savage realm.
So, it appears Rebels Maul isn't exactly shit, he just suffers from characteristic arrogance. It's entirely possible he declined physically or in the Force, but there's nothing to suggest as much. It's also not apparent he got much better, aside from learning some Dathomiri spells and possibly finding new Sith lore.
I'd say Rebels Maul > TPM is a safer bet than the reverse.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
A lack of feats? Lel. Low showings is also hilarious. The only time he's even remotely outclassed is against Obi-Wan and Bullshit-Kanan, which is not exactly a low showing.
Those aren't low showings?
He displayed good feats? where?
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No one ever hints at Maul being weak either. That's something people have just assumed because they're trying to make sense of Rebels shit writing that tries too hard to "poetic."
He comes across as old and weak when we first see him on his walking stick.
Witwer and the episode gallery say he starts to grow stronger after siphoning off Ezra's youth.
Witwer also says the dark side ages people more.
Maul and Witwer also talk about Maul's prime in his past.
Originally posted by |King Joker|
Rebels isn't really a medium where Maul can actually get a lot of feats, though. He was a side character in Rebels and was basically used as a plot device, and unlike where he got a large chunk of his feats beforehand, there aren't many fully-trained Jedi roaming about for Maul to fight against. So using his lack of feats as an argument doesn't really make sense. As for his low showings, they're all pretty much incredibly circumstantial.I'll need quotes with context so I know what you're referring to.
Fair enough for the most part.
But in this particular case, where we're arguing TPM Maul, I'm also pointing out him not having lost so much potential/raw power yet, and not being mentally broken/stuck in the past.
Even as of TCW S4 and Early S5 Filoni talks about Maul still being in recovery.
So yes, even though a lack of feats is understandable, that also doesn't mean we should just assume he's as good as peak points in his past when he actually did have really good feats.
