Originally posted by KingD19
Didn't Jon get launched by a Walker? iirc hitting that column should've shattered his spine, but he got right back up.
The anti-Jon team is lowballing like crazy. I can understand why a case for Brienne or Jamie can be made, but Bronn literally has done nothing more impressive than what Jon did, so all they do is try to make it seem like defeating a white walker is something that any person with valyrian steel can easily do.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Also, Jon won against Styr. So not sure what you're saying.You say White Walkers are featless? Well, so are the sandsnakes, a random dothraki rider or Vardis. At least the white walkers are super strong and durable, which makes beating one way more impressive than fighting those featless opponents that Bronn fought.
You don't get what I'm saying. If we say both are featless, Jon needed far longer than Bronn to kill his opponents. The problem with the White Walkers is that they haven't fought anyone bar Jon and that random Thenn, and Jon has a specific weapon that counters them - their durability isn't helping them. Jon isn't good because he fought the WW, the WW are good because they contended with Jon.
Anyway, Jon has better feats - like slaughtering wildlings in seconds-, but Bronn has similar feats to those - slaughtering soldiers & cavalary, as well as clansmen. I can see why you think Jon wins, and I might even start to agree, because of his reach & reflexes, but things like getting beaten by Styr, beating the White Walkers (who don't have feats except for fighting Jon) and surving the BotB isn't good enough.
@KingD19 Styr and the Walker both tossed him around and should have broken his bones, but Jon just continued fighting. He's crazy durable.
Originally posted by Ursumeles
After Jon got disarmed, Styr throwed him around like a ragdoll instead of killing him, and Jon got lucky and found a hammer. I don't see how that's a legit win.You don't get what I'm saying. If we say both are featless, Jon needed far longer than Bronn to kill his opponents. The problem with the White Walkers is that they haven't fought anyone bar Jon and that random Thenn, and Jon has a specific weapon that counters them - their durability isn't helping them. Jon isn't good because he fought the WW, the WW are good because they contended with Jon.
Anyway, Jon has better feats - like slaughtering wildlings in seconds-, but Bronn has similar feats to those - slaughtering soldiers & cavalary, as well as clansmen. I can see why you think Jon wins, and I might even start to agree, because of his reach & reflexes, but things like getting beaten by Styr, beating the White Walkers (who don't have feats except for fighting Jon) and surving the BotB isn't good enough.@KingD19 Styr and the Walker both tossed him around and should have broken his bones, but Jon just continued fighting. He's crazy durable.
If you think Jon didn't beat Styr cleanly because he was lucky enough to find a hammer, then Bronn obviously didn't beat the dothraki rider cleanly, considering he only won because he was lucky enough to find a ballista. Agreed? So if you want to say Jon got beaten by Styr, then Bronn was clearly beaten by a random Dothraki. That's an even worse showing.
As for Jon having a weapon against WW, that's not much different from Bronn's sword easily being able to kill his opponents with a direct hit. What's different though is that you can't really block most of the WW's hits without getting thrown around. Bronn has never fought anyone that strong.
And for the last time, Jon didn't only slaughter wildlings. He slaughtered numerous soldiers while being in other battles, just like Bronn did.
Originally posted by FrothByte
If you think Jon didn't beat Styr cleanly because he was lucky enough to find a hammer, then Bronn obviously didn't beat the dothraki rider cleanly, considering he only won because he was lucky enough to find a ballista. Agreed? So if you want to say Jon got beaten by Styr, then Bronn was clearly beaten by a random Dothraki. That's an even worse showing.As for Jon having a weapon against WW, that's not much different from Bronn's sword easily being able to kill his opponents with a direct hit. What's different though is that you can't really block most of the WW's hits without getting thrown around. Bronn has never fought anyone that strong.
And for the last time, Jon didn't only slaughter wildlings. He slaughtered numerous soldiers while being in other battles, just like Bronn did.
No, it is really different. If the Walkers just get touched by the sword, they fall into pieces. If a soldier get's a cut, then he just fights on - or Jorah woud've died because Qotho cut him in the cheek 😬
And indeed Bronn never fought anyone that strong, but that doesn't means he can't beat a WW (with the right weapon, of course). Bronn has similar strenght feats to Jon, though I'd give Jon the edge. I mean, Arthur Dayne never fought anyone as strong as The Mountain, but does that mean Oberyn would beat Dayne?
And I know he didn't. I never said otherwise. I know Jon fought Wildlings, Soldiers, Wights and Crows. It's just that his feats against the wildlings are the most impressive, imo. And I don't think that random Bolton soldiers are >> the wildlings at Castle Black anyway.
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Link to Dothraki vs Bronn?
Anyway, you don't get what I'm saying. Jon losing to Styr isn't a bad showing for Jon - it's a good showing for Styr, but Styr is basically featless except for his fight with Jon (I guess he slaughtered crows & farmers tho), but being featless =/= being bad. If Bronn really lost to a Dothraki (as in, being disarmed and just being lucky to "find" a weapon) then it's a good feat for the Dothraji.No, it is really different. If the Walkers just get touched by the sword, they fall into pieces. If a soldier get's a cut, then he just fights on - or Jorah woud've died because Qotho cut him in the cheek 😬
And indeed Bronn never fought anyone that strong, but that doesn't means he can't beat a WW (with the right weapon, of course). Bronn has similar strenght feats to Jon, though I'd give Jon the edge. I mean, Arthur Dayne never fought anyone as strong as The Mountain, but does that mean Oberyn would beat Dayne?And I know he didn't. I never said otherwise. I know Jon fought Wildlings, Soldiers, Wights and Crows. It's just that his feats against the wildlings are the most impressive, imo. And I don't think that random Bolton soldiers are >> the wildlings at Castle Black anyway.
There's a big difference between Jon vs. Styr and Bronn vs. random Dothraki. For one thing, Jon actually gave Styr a fight, looked to even have the edge up until they started fighting h2h. Whereas Bronn just ran away from the Dothraki. Styr is also one of the most feared wildling chieftains. He's strong, he's ruthless, he's a renowned warrior. Defeating a named character like that is way more impressive than beating random fodder, in this case a random dothraki. Here's the link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioMJMZptFw0
As for the WW, you're right, a single hit will kill them with the right weapon, though that's probably countered by the fact that a single hit from them will probably kill you too. The there's the fact that Jon didn't fight the WW initially with his sword. He fought with a random sword, even tried to go h2h with the WW. He got beat up bloody but still continued to fight. That's a better show of durability and heart than what Bronn ever did. Jon fought a WW a second time, this time he didn't even get hit. For someone to outskill an opponent who's massively stronger than they are with a longer reach, that's something Bronn has never done. Bronn was even afraid to go up against the Mountain.
In the end, Bronn hasn't gone up against opponents as dangerous as Jon has, nor has he dispatched these opponents as efficiently as Jon has. So there really is no logical reason why anyone would think he wins over Jon.
^ I mean, Show! Jon might not be Top-Tier, as in Jaime-level, but he's around the same level as the likes of Bronn / Daario / Greyworm, honestly. Why do you think Bronn wins, though?
@FrothByte Let's just agree to disagree. I don't really care for the debate anymore, you don't seem to understand / adress some of my points (maybe because of my shit english lol) and it's not like one of us will change our viewpoint.
Originally posted by Ursumeles
@FrothByte Let's just agree to disagree. I don't really care for the debate anymore, you don't seem to understand / adress some of my points (maybe because of my shit english lol) and it's not like one of us will change our viewpoint.
As far as I can tell, I just finished countering your points and am waiting to see how you get out of that corner. I can respect your decision to drop out of the debate but it seems like you're taking the easy way out.
Originally posted by random letters
Book Jon loses to book Jorah.If we're going with show versions, he probably gets to Bronn and loses.
Jon is pretty good with the sword and gets a lot of love as the main character, but he was never one of the elite fighters.
Book Jon was described as being one heck of a sword fighter. Yeah he's not top tier like Jamie is but he's definitely one of the better ones.
Originally posted by Mindset
Bronn isn't an elite fighter.
Bronn is an Omega Level fighter, you dirty infidel.
Originally posted by Ursumeles
If Bronn really lost to a Dothraki (as in, being disarmed and just being lucky to "find" a weapon) then it's a good feat for the Dothraji.
Originally posted by FrothByte
In the end it doesn't matter. Quality of wildling weapons won't matter since we've never seen any of their weapons fail against Jon's Valerian sword nor any of the nightwatch's supposedly superior weaponry.Jon didn't defeat them due to his superior weaponry. And Bronn doesn't have superior weapons than Jon anyway. So at this point this is simply strawmanning.
I don't think you know what strawmanning is. I gave multiple points as to why I don't think Jon fighting undead and wildlings were as impressive as others might seem and you decided to focus on weaponry.
Originally posted by juggerman
Exactly. Jon has not been fighting competent fighters very often. Wildlings have no armor, inferior weapons and no actual combat training. The undead are even worse. They don't dodge, block, parry or use any other technique. They kinda just run right at you so you don't have to do much other than hack and slash them down.
As you can see, them having inferior weaponry is only a small part of my point 👆
^ Well, Wildlings are often experienced killer, and it would make sense if the ones that attacked Castle Black were actually among the best of them. It's not like Dothraki have "official training" either. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.
And what is the basis that the Soldiers have that much training? It seems like they are just smallfolk to me.
Anyway, the impressive thing about Jon's wildlings feat is that he's capable of killing several opponents in only a few opinions, which is impressive regardless of his opponents being wildlings, smallfolk or whatever.
Originally posted by Ursumeles
^ Well, Wildlings are often experienced killer, and it would make sense if the ones that attacked Castle Black were actually among the best of them. It's not like Dothraki have "official training" either. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.
And what is the basis that the Soldiers have that much training? It seems like they are just smallfolk to me.Anyway, the impressive thing about Jon's wildlings feat is that he's capable of killing several opponents in only a few opinions, which is impressive regardless of his opponents being wildlings, smallfolk or whatever.
Oh don't get me wrong, I think Jon is an excellent fighter in this universe. My contention is that people seem to think fighting multiple low skilled opponents equals being able to beat a single higher skilled opponent. In a melee fight you use different tactics than against one guy. Plus Bronn fights dirty which again Jon has had trouble with before. And finally, Bronn had his dagger that he can whip at Jon's throat with crazy accuracy. That would likely end the fight right there.
To be fair, if this were a straight up, no BS, one sword only and no armor for each match up then I'd side with Jon. But where anything goes, my money is on Bronn
EDIT: I just realised I didn't answer your question. Wildlings are indeed killers but again, how they fight is important. Jon has been training from a young age by a Master at Arms who taught him how to properly hold a blade, how to swing it, how to parry, feint, dodge and all manner of other techniques to use while in combat facing an opponent of equal or greater skill. The Wildlings could never hope to replicate such extensive training in the wilds of the True North. I would liken it that time the UFC had Marines come in and fight professional fighters. Marines are trained to kill in a multitude of ways this was a specific discipline that the MMA guys had a shit ton more experience in. Yeah they're good fighters compared to your average Joe but be was by no means hot shit in that area
As far as the Dothraki, we have no idea how Bronn stacked up in a actual sword fight. What we saw was the Bloodrider was superior to Bronn on horseback and it has been stated in the series that they train on horse all their lives. So it's understandable that he out performed Bronn while mounted.