Wonder Woman Vs Flash

Your point was that in one picosecond we hardly moved a muscle?
I wouldn't expect that we would. Are you jogging when you read your comics?

If you meant to write that Wonder Woman hardly moved a muscle in one picosecond, you need to tell me why she should have thought she needed to.
Do you expect to get stabbed by your friends the moment you turn your head when you have a conversation with them? Even if you're helping them control a crowd? At best you can make the case that Wondy should have been prepared for literally anything and wasn't.

You're definitely making a claim about what Wally did. You're doing that by simply stating what he did in that one picosecond. It just happens to be a verifiable claim and one backed by evidence, instead of the unsubstantiated variety.

I said little if anything regarding Deathstroke's actions as Plot Induced Stupidity (PIS) because I am not 100% sure they are. It's a common theme in comics that moving at different speeds gives a character different perception rates. For example, Gladiator as he normally is fights at roughly the rate Thor does when fighting Hulk. However, I distinctly remember a story when Thor and the Fantastic Four were sped up to the point that they were an almost imperceptible blur. Gladiator sped up to match their rate and suddenly they were no longer a blur but beings he could have more or less normal interaction with. Wally presumably has several such modes now. Can he make a miscalculation in any of them? Better question: Slade slamming Flash into a wall seems to be something from many years ago. Did Flash regularly demonstrate great enough control of his speed back THEN that an enemy catching him off guard as he rounds a corner would have been considered absurd?

Deathstroke drawing blood on Wonder Woman more than 20 years ago wasn't the absurdity some might have considered it in 2007. The great damage soak and healing and durability associated with her during the Sacrifice era came as a result of rather random, chaotic boosts. It's arguable that the upgrades in her toughness were the PIS, not her vulnerability.

For that matter, Wonder Woman since the 1940s has been a literal deus ex machina character, with her ability to take punishment as variable as the whims of her rotating roster of writers. The same Wonder Woman who literally lassoed the Moon and resisted tank shells bouncing off her body, is the same one who could be knocked unconscious with a blow from the butt of a rifle. It's as if Greek deities were constantly deciding what should physically happen to her in any adventure, and, of course, there is some truth to that.

Your claim of ABC is sophistry.

We are examining the options they have available in a fight, how likely they are to use those options, and how effective their commonly employed fight strategies have and should prove based on their history.

If the argument, for instance, is that Flash has the option of using a near-infinite mass punch on Wonder Woman then it's worth examining:

1) Is Flash actually likely to use such a thing on Diana?
2) DID Flash actually hit Diana with an I.m.p.?
3) If answer to #2 is "no", what happened when someone ELSE actually hit Wonder Woman with this kind of attack? A second time? A third?
4) What was the result of their fight? What were the circumstances?
Is the outcome reasonable and/or consistent with the rest of their history? Why or why not?

As for Batman:

1). Doubtless there are some incidences of Bruce enjoying PIS.
He's called "Batgod" for a reason.
2). Batman beating White Martians with flame is not something I would consider PIS. White Martians have been shown experiencing devastating psychological AND physical trauma near fire.
3). Zoom striking Batman and Batman surviving is no less plausible than Zoom striking the Themysciran woman who took 200 punches from him and survived.
Zoom has control over how hard and how fast he punches things and people.
4). Batman IS one of the greatest of the Justice League. He spends more time seeking ways to neutralize his inherent weaknesses than almost any other member.
5) I'll be glad to post your Zoom punching Batman scan.
Just give me a minute ...

Here you go:

At this point, we are just going round in circles as you post irrelevant things.

Usually am up for a long drawn out debate, but this has bored me far too much to be enjoyable...I simply don't want to engage with you further on this topic any longer.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's the speedsteal, plus his, well, speed advantage over her.

It's a nonlethal option which he can and has used in the past, which will stand him in good stead. He wouldn't want to go fisticuffs with Diana - he knows her too well.

My first post here, which hasn't changed.

I'm reasonably satisfied every major complaint D.S. has made has been directly addressed. Fairly little concrete reference information has been given for those things needing some investigative reading, so I'll probably begin supplying that as time permits.

I don't agree with blanket calling of Character X beating Character Y as P.I.S.
Often during the time period some of these skirmishes took place and the manner in which they occurred, the result often THEN made considerable sense.

For instance what we now term the Speed Force, described nowadays as if it has always existed in the DCU, seems actually to have been introduced only after about a decade had past from the post-Crisis On Infinite Earth series.

I learned that in the article linked here, because, as alluded to earlier, I was genuinely interested in seeing how Wondy's own Godwave interacted with Speedforce, which I've actually seen associated with or derived from GW on several forums or webpages now:

https://ifanboy.com/articles/dc-histories-speed-force/

That link just confirms the scan I posted.

That the Speed Force comes from Barry,NOT the Godwave.

yeah that retcon (of barry being the source of the sf) is one of the worst in comics history. in fact, it might be THE worst. it made absolutely no sense--haven't followed flash lately but i hope it has made some sense since.

but yeah, the godwave has never played a part in the sf's origin. 😕

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah that retcon (of barry being the source of the sf) is one of the worst in comics history. in fact, it might be THE worst. it made absolutely no sense--haven't followed flash lately but i hope it has made some sense since.

but yeah, the godwave has never played a part in the sf's origin. 😕

You'll find a lot of websites arguing the opposite if you Google "Godwave" and "Speed Force".

Most of them seem to be based on Wiki's that seem to be based on the following:

The above is either from Genesis #3, the comic, or New Gods Secret Files and Origins #1. Here's what Comicvine and Wikipedia have to say:

" The Godwave was a mystical wave of energy, created by The Source, that swept across the cosmos, responsible for creating various pantheons of gods. As it spread it eventually reached the edge of the universe and rebounded, making a second pass that created the potential for Superhumans. Thus, it was responsible for creating the likes of the Speed Force, the Quantum Field and the energy channeled by the Guardians of the Universe. In time, the resonance created by the Godwave began to expand and contract whereupon it returned to The Source. This expansion and contraction began to affect the powers of various beings throughout the universe. As a result, the cosmic energy force began to tear apart the structures it had created whereupon it would wipe the universe clean bringing about the emergence of a new and terrible Fifth World to replace it ... "

Yes, but retcon. Those scans have been retconned by Flash Rebirth, in 2009. A prime example of why we don't use wikis, and actually do our own research. Once more, I post my evidence. Again.

By the by, with regards to your assertions of PIS:

No Mentioning Events of PIS
Plot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline. It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics. Examples of PIS include Flash stories lasting longer than three panels, or Toy Man as a threat to Superman.

So yeah, keep going. But know it's against forum rules.

Edit:

In accordance with this, several factors come in to play in debates:

The Opponent, Basic Information, the Arena and the Character's Personality and Experience

Those four are key.

Example:

If Martian Manhunter fights say, Juggernaut.

MM doesn't personally know Juggernaut (Opponent). So he has Basic Information. This is categorised as being what the general public would know about the Juggernaut. It goes by averages. If that average man or woman on the street knows that Juggernaut is super strong, then MM knows. The average man or woman doesn't know, however, that the Juggernaut is weak against psionics. J'onn would approach with caution, not knowing whether Juggernaut was in his weight class, and not knowing the full extent of the man's powers.

However. If Martian Manhunter went up against Amazo, he would know to go for broke right at the start, because he KNOWS Amazo (Personality and Experience). He will use his speed, his strength, his shapeshifting. This is because if he knows what it takes to bring down Amazo, or he believes his standard attacks won't work. If J'onn was fighting Juggernaut, there would come a point when he would realise that normal attacks won't work, and would up his game. Any character that doesn't suffer from Rhino-esque stupidity is capable of this. Even with this, though, the Arena comes in to play. If civilians are in danger, J'onn won't shapeshift in to a fire breathing dragon. Juggernaut on the other hand doesn't care, so wouldn't hesitate to toss cars and trucks full of civilians at the Martian.

This is what I was driving at, when I said Flash would use speedsteal at the start, so as to not hurt WW.

He personally knows Diana (Opponent, Personality, and Experience). He's seen her in action. He knows not to pussyfoot around.

But neither is he going to blind her, or use esoteric attacks. I mean, HAD I wanted to argue out of character attacks, I would have used this:

Low tolerance to high voltages, eh?

Or:

Infinite energy.

And again:

But again, I did not. I used a tactic that Flash has used several times before, notably against WW:

Didn't really notice the Flash Rebirth affair. So, in terms of getting it actually paid attention to by me, it's good you reposted.

As I said before, though, Godwave/Speedforce issues will take some time to get answers to. It means little to say Barry created the SpeedForce if the Godwave created the physics that permit superhumans in the DCU to begin with, including Barry.

As for Wikis, it's worthwhile to note are a lot more reliable than they were in the days when Stephen Colbert was joking about them, or even in Raz's day a decade or so ago. They usually are a good place to track down the primary sources of this stuff, too. They are a good aid and starting point in research in other words, and, every so often, are good enough to do the job on their own.

Incidentally, if you want to further people's knowledge, it would be helpful if you gave reference information for these submissions whenever and wherever you found you know them. This is one thing missing from many wikis and forum debated that PREVENTS people from doing practical research -- they simply don't know where to look and what books contain the answers they seek.

I think the idea of speed steal is a good one on your part. It would definitely be within character for Wally not to want to hurt Diana and to go for a relatively gentle means of taking her down. However it's rare enough that most people never heard of it. Practically unknown on this forum, I dare say, until you started presenting it in some of these threads, even by people who have spent years collecting Justice League titles. I'd be interested in knowing how much of a percentage it actually represents of Flash's historic m.o.

Retcons continually occur at DC, as you yourself are wont to point out, and they can be bane or boon to any particular character.

Regarding this however:

(Wonder Woman receiving high voltage shock from some villain, in an issue I'm not completely familiar with)

... it's worthwhile to point out Wonder Woman has demonstrated the ability to deflect lightning, even such that is blessed with magic, even such that brings planes and Superman to the ground:

Source: Wonder Woman #600

The speed steal was a relatively (ish) recent development in the 90s. Wally learnt how to do it from his older counter part, and once he was able to do it, he did it fairly regularly.

That 'random villain' is Dr Polaris, and it's from the JLA. As said before though, THAT'S a little used power, and that's what I've not used.

The speedsteal? We can create a straw poll, if you like. Other people not knowing it, does not make it invalid or false. Nor does it make it an unlikely tactic - we have seen Wally sparring with WW. He knows her, in fact, he's a little in awe of her, and rightly so. You have posted many scans of how formidable she is.....and Wally knows how formidable she is, too.

So why WOULD he just revert to the normal tactics he reserves for human level opponents like Captain Cold et al? Why wouldn't he bust out the big guns, to ensure victory? Why engage in the usual punching, when he knows WW is so skilled, so fast, so strong?

Deflecting Single, discrete bolts of lightning is fine and all....but once more,we revert to the speed issue. Wally is fast enough to be an indistinct blur, and asWW notes, he can do everything as quickly as he can run. Moreover, he can flood the entire area with electricity, as shown in my scans.

And as you have noted, if she is unable to register that she's been attacked, she's unable to defend herself. But again,that's a little used power, and one I haven't used. That's how it compares to the speedsteal,where I've posted multiple instances of him busting it out, against villains and heroes,as a first ditch attack even when he doesn't know them, or as a last ditch attack when he's desperate.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Deflecting Single, discrete bolts of lightning is fine and all....but once more,we revert to the speed issue. Wally is fast enough to be an indistinct blur, and as WW notes, he can do everything as quickly as he can run. Moreover, he can flood the entire area with electricity, as shown in my scans.

Let's be clear: I absolutely expect Diana to be tagged with SOMETHING when she's fighting the Flash. The question is, given the total package of her own speed, skill, and sheer physicality, will that something be enough to earn Flash the win against Diana before she manages to tag him?

I don't think electricity would earn a win. Post-Crisis Diana is probably not on the level of electric comfort of 2014 Diana ...

(DCnU Wonder Woman; don't know exactly which issue right now)

... but it's important to note that post-Crisis Wondy WAS heading in that direction

Here is where one of the anomalies I allude to shows up. Diana versus Cottis. Wonder Woman #39, Volume 3. Note that Wonder Woman herself uses an area lightning attack. Powerful enough to take out a Greek monster who supposedly shares some of her demigod power. While underwater. Should have had the hell shocked out of her, yes?

Source: Wonder Woman #39, Volume 3

Incidentally, as I'm SURE the question came to one or more people reading this thread, we apparently DON'T know yet why electric eels are able to do what they do and get away with it:

https://www.popsci.com/why-dont-electric-eels-electrocute-themselves

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You'll find a lot of websites arguing the opposite if you Google "Godwave" and "Speed Force".

Most of them seem to be based on Wiki's that seem to be based on the following:

The above is either from Genesis #3, the comic, or New Gods Secret Files and Origins #1. Here's what Comicvine and Wikipedia have to say:

" The Godwave was a mystical wave of energy, created by The Source, that swept across the cosmos, responsible for creating various pantheons of gods. As it spread it eventually reached the edge of the universe and rebounded, making a second pass that created the potential for Superhumans. Thus, [b]it was responsible for creating the likes of the Speed Force, the Quantum Field and the energy channeled by the Guardians of the Universe. In time, the resonance created by the Godwave began to expand and contract whereupon it returned to The Source. This expansion and contraction began to affect the powers of various beings throughout the universe. As a result, the cosmic energy force began to tear apart the structures it had created whereupon it would wipe the universe clean bringing about the emergence of a new and terrible Fifth World to replace it ... "
[/B]

whoa, that wiki quote makes no sense at all for a few reasons, which leads me to believe that entire wiki should be tossed--as they usually should. it starts out quoting the book almost word for word then goes ahead and extrapolates based on...nothing really, aside from a random collection of heroes in a picture.

the comic explicitly states that that the wave passed initially, 40 000 years ago, then a second wave passed after that. well, the guardians had learned to harness willpower BILLIONS of years ago and the corps itself has been around almost as long--also billions of years. atlantis's known history extends back nearly 150 000 years ago. hell, at the time of that scan i don't even think the history of green martians had been retconned yet and they were millions and millions of years old as well. and even if they HAD been retconned, the BURNING had been around for millions of years and THEY were the martian antecedents and had vast powers already. and of course magic has been around pretty much since the start of the universe as well.

so....yeah. that scan, and the explicit claim that a wave only 40 000 years old granted all this power makes....no sense. at all. the book also explicitly says the wave bounced off the edge of the universe. but the sf (and many other energy sources) are located OUTSIDE the universe, so again, not sure how it can reasonably be assumed to have been the cause of the powers that wiki claims.

not, imo, coincidentally, the comic is somewhat ambiguous and really doesn't go into any detailed explanations regarding the formation of the these powers. lol i think that was intentionally done. that wiki quote is pretty ridiculous and extrapolates too far and so falls apart for many reasons. sounds like it was written by a godwave fanboy who just wanted it to take credit for everything. probably to ultimately hype up wonder woman. /shrug

and all that of course, is completely beside the point that the sf was retconned to be sourced in barry. which i'd personally like to pretend never happened.

Byrne tried to retcon everything as byproduct of third world destruction but it was forgotten as soon as he left DC and for good reasons.

Godwave itself has never been mentioned since Godwar arc from WW v2.

with good reason for sure. 👆

Well the implication from bluewater is that die to her connection to the Godwave, WW would be able to resist speedsteal.

😐