Originally posted by Steve Zodiac
Flash fact, the Flash only ever loses to bricks due to forgetting his powers and PIS. Diana for all her "skill" is a flying brick.
I'm not really discovering that to be true. A lot of Flash's losses make considerable sense when considering the time period they were written in.
I was thinking of this when considering the episode DS vaguely alluded to a few pages back when he claimed Wonder Woman was "amped" as she neared the SpeedForce or something of the like.
He was talking about a comic called "Wonder Woman plus Jesse Quick".
I know because I own that story. I am almost certain DC has retconned the hell out of this by now, as they do with most everything else, but the story has a lot of implications for this thread that should be addressed, so ...
I want this to be a relatively self-contained and informative read without much text from myself, so this will take a few more images than normal, and thus one or two extra posts:
Originally posted by leonidas
whoa, that wiki quote makes no sense at all for a few reasons, which leads me to believe that entire wiki should be tossed--as they usually should. it starts out quoting the book almost word for word then goes ahead and extrapolates based on...nothing really, aside from a random collection of heroes in a picture.the comic explicitly states that that the wave passed initially, 40 000 years ago, then a second wave passed after that. well, the guardians had learned to harness willpower BILLIONS of years ago and the corps itself has been around almost as long--also billions of years. atlantis's known history extends back nearly 150 000 years ago. hell, at the time of that scan i don't even think the history of green martians had been retconned yet and they were millions and millions of years old as well. and even if they HAD been retconned, the BURNING had been around for millions of years and THEY were the martian antecedents and had vast powers already. and of course magic has been around pretty much since the start of the universe as well.
so....yeah. that scan, and the explicit claim that a wave only 40 000 years old granted all this power makes....no sense. at all. the book also explicitly says the wave bounced off the edge of the universe. but the sf (and many other energy sources) are located OUTSIDE the universe, so again, not sure how it can reasonably be assumed to have been the cause of the powers that wiki claims.
not, imo, coincidentally, the comic is somewhat ambiguous and really doesn't go into any detailed explanations regarding the formation of the these powers. lol i think that was intentionally done. that wiki quote is pretty ridiculous and extrapolates too far and so falls apart for many reasons. sounds like it was written by a godwave fanboy who just wanted it to take credit for everything. probably to ultimately hype up wonder woman. /shrug
and all that of course, is completely beside the point that the sf was retconned to be sourced in barry. which i'd personally like to pretend never happened.
👆
Diana's adventure with Jesse highlights an important connection between Savitar and Wondy's own patron of speed, Hermes. It is actually this story that probably has the most to suggest about whether speed steal would work on Diana.
Of note here is that Diana actually catches up to Jesse as Jesse obsessively pursues Christina:
Rereading them (thanks for the upload) you can also read a very telling sentence, in addition to seeing that WW had to cheat to keep up with Jesse Quick, and that there was a portal amping her a hundredfold to do something Wally can do easily.
Without the skill of one for whom speed is their weapon....Wonder Woman is at distinct disadvantage.
Who WAS that masked lady? Someone who had DUPLICATED Wally's speed.
Oh my.
I didn't fail to note it. That favour return was due to Jesse's stamina, not speed - not to mention, it was because she ran out of road (and can't run on water? Something that Wally does regularly).
So she doesn't have to cheat, but did it....for fun?
Note too that she learnt that trick from her Mother,Hippolyta. Who was slower than Wally. Probably why she needed that trick.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Rereading them (thanks for the upload) you can also read a very telling sentence ..."Without the skill of one for whom speed is their weapon....Wonder Woman is at distinct disadvantage ..."
I have little doubt if a Flash's objective is to escape with a stolen piece of parchment that they'll be able to do so, if that's a question in your mind.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I didn't fail to note it. That favour return was due to Jesse's stamina, not speed - not to mention, it was because she ran out of road (and can't run on water? Something that Wally does regularly).So she doesn't have to cheat, but did it....for fun?
Note too that she learnt that trick from her Mother,Hippolyta. Who was slower than Wally. Probably why she needed that trick.
1. Until now, you did fail to note it, at least publicly. Now you've noted it.
2. I am not certain of what Flash characters could do in 1997, but running on water, at least beyond 180 miles , seems to be a limitation of them at this time, for Jesse Quick, at the very least. If so, this is corroboration that the Deathstroke versus Flash episode, the one where Slade trips Flash into a brick wall as he blindly rounds a corner, was probably something perfectly sensible when it was written. People don't realize, we take what these characters can do NOW for granted, because writers and artists get us used to seeing these difficulties overcome over time. They don't start out that way, and, in fact, at the beginning stages, the PIS comes from the writer introducing some violation of the norm to allow the hero to get past ordinary difficulty.
Flash is an AMAZING example of this. I started to put the following, for instance, in the "Character Ownage" thread:
For the 3rd one, in fact, if there is any hero in HISTORY who has been owned harder than that, please let me know.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well it would appear a rather no-name villain managed to have WW at a distinct disadvantage.Said villain having tried to duplicate Wally's speed (although of course, she wasn't anywhere near Wally in terms of speed).
But yes,nice portal.
I've never had reason to review WW+JQ with any purpose before this thread.
I may do so in the very near future.
However, that villain very definitely has a name, Christina, and was, as Jesse points out, actually a Flash character before the time of this story.
I stumbled across her the other day in fact :
I don't remember exactly what I was searching for when I saw that.
Probably that fight against Slade in the alleyway, 'cause that fight looks like 1990s, and I saw someone mention the outfit Flash is wearing came from after Flash #50, when he first apparently wore it.
You can see the beginnings of the attraction Christina had for Flash there, which Jesse alluded to:
... and I think it was you yourself that probably presented the following, since, again, the first memorable episode of Flash using speed steal that I can recall was against Amazo in Justice League of America #23:
Here I note the maneuver is voiced as something exclusively done by a speedster TO a speedster. Which would actually explain why Flash had the most devastating effect against Inertia, the Flash villain he turned into a statue in that scan series of yours, and likewise why it failed to stop Amazo, who could simply borrow speed from other fast characters like Superman and Wonder Woman.
Yes. Although it has worked against Girder, Superman, and WW as well....oh, and Kraakl, and the entire population of Planet Earth. Please note in that scan,he had ONLY JUST LEARNT HOW YO DO IT.
You're not doing terribly well here. I seriously suggest you go and review, then come back when you know more about both characters. You weren't aware, for example, of the death of the Invisible Jet, nor were you aware all was IMPing back in 1997. Nor were you aware about the circumstances of the Godwave. Or the usage of Injustice scans for WW.
With Amazo, stealing speed means nothing when he can copy it back again.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
In 1997,Wally did his INfinite Mass Punch.Thus far, you have failed multiple times to acknowledge the existence of the portal which amps speedsters a hundred fold...
Edit edit:. Your scans seem to have backfired on you spectacularly.
How many times are you gonna edit this post?
The portal presents very few problems for me, actually. Diana is able to catch up to Jesse Quick AND to Christina before it. After Christina and Jesse Quick enter the portal, Diana is able to catch up to Jesse again and get her lasso around her.
Moreover, this is a portal created by a scroll of Hermes the patron who grants Diana HER speed and who has often been shown, post-crisis, having very familial rapport with Diana. If anything, I'd consider the fact Diana CAN use something like this as a huge plus, not a minus.
Erm...no she wasn't.
Christina didn't even know she was being chased when WW caught up with them at the temple. One would hope it's easy to catch up to someone who's not running away from you...
As for Hermes' portal, you're going to what, now assert she gains aboost from him for this fight? Forum rules, outside help isn't allowed. She's not praying to her patrons for extra speed.
But am glad we all agree she was amped, as I said in my post. Thamks for the scans.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Erm...no she wasn't.Christina didn't even know she was being chased when WW caught up with them at the temple. One would hope it's easy to catch up to someone who's not running away from you...
As for Hermes' portal, you're going to what, now assert she gains aboost from him for this fight? Forum rules, outside help isn't allowed. She's not praying to her patrons for extra speed.
But am glad we all agree she was amped, as I said in my post. Thamks for the scans.
😕 No she wasn't what, exactly?
Diana very definitely caught up to Christina. That's why Diana got slammed into a BUS, remember? I wasn't referring to the temple encounter where Christina was just chatting with her followers. By the way, just as "it's easy to catch up to someone who's not running from you", it's also easy to hit or nearly hit someone who doesn't know they're in a FIGHT with you.
That's especially true when your head is turned to them and they are a friend of yours named Green Lantern and you're in the process of helping them with crowd control ...
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except you've helpfully provided scans of WW not needing to see anything to realise she's being attacked🙂So THAT doesn't hold.
In the JLA fight she's in a training exercise.
She knows she's going to be attacked.
In the fight with Zoom and Cheetah, Cheetah has just murdered a woman and Zoom is saying he'd like to "work" with Diana.
She knows she's going to be attacked.
In the instance of Green Lantern suddenly turning on Diana, she doesn't know she's going to be attacked.
By the way, a rather similar parallel presents after the image of that peddling "race" against Diana you showed earlier:
JLA: Tower Of Babel
Interestingly enough, Flash can't react in time to the tree being swung even with Diana giving him a verbal warning ...
