GT vs. DBS

Y'all are welcome to your opinions, but frankly, I believe the multipliers being thrown around for DBS here are vastly overinflated, to say the least... Especially without having any canon evidence to help substantiate these claims.

I mean, it is a WELL established fact that if you are 'just' 2-4x > your opponent, you can dominate them with almost NO effort at all... Hell, SSJ Goku was only about 20% more powerful than Freeza on Namek, yet he still stomped him quite easily in the manga. What I'm saying is: the characters in DBS don't *have* to be 'hundreds of thousands' of times more powerful than they were in Z for their God-level powers to be considered as vast as they are.

NewGuy's analogy was spot on, imo: SSG could have 'just' been 50x SSJ3, and Goku would've still considered it to be an astronomically massive amp, that put him in a whole new realm of power... And frankly that *would* still be true, considering his power seemed to have plateaued before attaining godhood. After all, Beerus initially stated that base Goku was still WEAKER than Freeza... Which tells us that Goku's base power(which is what the SSJ multipliers build from) had increased LESS THAN 50x in the ~16 years of constant training between the Namek saga and the beginning of BoG.

Just some food for thought. /shrug

Pre SSJ Goku also fended off Freeza with a much lower power level.

And he managed to keep from dying against Radditz for some time, and even managed to hold him in a full nelson.

The instances where a small increase made a dramatic difference, are when it was Goku or Vegeta with the advantage.

Then there's Nappa being given a fair struggle against skilled Earthlings.

That's plenty of proof PL isn't everything. Skill + PL is where you get your stomps.

It was said during the beginning of Super that Goku base level carries God power. This is why he tends to fight well in this form against powerful opponents.

That was said in the movie, the anime retcons this. Just like it retcons the 70% for Beerus.

Originally posted by Galan007
Y'all are welcome to your opinions, but frankly, I believe the multipliers being thrown around for DBS here are vastly overinflated, to say the least... Especially without having any canon evidence to help substantiate these claims.

I mean, it is a WELL established fact that if you are 'just' 2-4x > your opponent, you can dominate them with almost NO effort at all... Hell, SSJ Goku was only about 20% more powerful than Freeza on Namek, yet he still stomped him quite easily in the manga. What I'm saying is: the characters in DBS don't *have* to be 'hundreds of thousands' of times more powerful than they were in Z for their God-level powers to be considered as vast as they are.

NewGuy's analogy was spot on, imo: SSG could have 'just' been 50x SSJ3, and Goku would've still considered it to be an astronomically massive amp, that put him in a whole new realm of power... And frankly that *would* still be true, considering his power seemed to have plateaued before attaining godhood. After all, Beerus initially stated that base Goku was still WEAKER than Freeza... Which tells us that Goku's base power(which is what the SSJ multipliers build from) had increased LESS THAN 50x in the [b]~16 years of constant training between the Namek saga and the beginning of BoG.

Just some food for thought. /shrug [/B]

Also, his base in BoG is irrelevant when we've seen what they can do in base from RoF arc, and in Vegeta's clone arc, and on.

Also, I'm talking specifically anime, cause if you go in the manga route, then Goku doesn't even compare to GT. And makes a lot more sense power scale wise.

But Super the anime, and GT both have absurd power scaling.

Originally posted by Kento
How do I not have any canon evidence to show my claims?

Not true; the gap between SSJG and SSJB was stated to be less than 10x in the manga. Other than that, no.

Yeah, that was the implication in the manga when Whis and Beerus explain that Vegeta's 2nd use of SSB against Hit made him less than 1/10th of normal SSB, and under SSG... Implying that SSB is around 10x SSG:

...Which is a pretty far cry from some of the theoretical multipliers being thrown around in this thread.

Additionally, Goku still considers SSB to be a "HUGE" boost over SSG:

So if you take the dialogue of Whis and Beerus at face value(doubting Whis in particular would be lulz-worthy, btw), then it coincides with what you and I have been saying: God-era multipliers do not *have* to be in the hundreds of thousands for the Z Fighters to view them as gargantuan boosts... Not when a ~10x increase is still regarded as "HUGE" by Goku himself. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, that was the implication in the manga when Whis and Beerus explain that Vegeta's 2nd use of SSB against Hit made him less than 1/10th of normal SSB, and under SSG... Implying that SSB is around [b]10x SSG:[/b]

And frankly, that's a highball. Goku's SSG was performing significantly better than Vegeta's 10% SSB, so it wouldn't be unthinkable for SSG to be 20% or more of SSB either. Especially considering how normal SSJ (which is far inferior to SSG) was keeping pace with Hit.

God-era multipliers do not *have* to be in the hundreds of thousands for the Z Fighters to view them as gargantuan boosts... Not when a ~10x increase is still regarded as "HUGE" by Goku himself. /shrug

To be fair though, SSG definitely compares favorably to SSJ4 as a transformation. I remember from one of the old guides that the multiplier for SSJ1 + Potara might rival SSJ4, and it's made 100% clear that Super Vegetto wouldn't have fared nearly as well against Beerus as SSG did.

The killer is that GT Goku is just stronger at the base level.

What boost do you guys estimate potara fusion to be?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And frankly, that's a highball. Goku's SSG was performing significantly better than Vegeta's 10% SSB, so it wouldn't be unthinkable for SSG to be 20% or more of SSB either. Especially considering how normal SSJ (which is far inferior to SSG) was keeping pace with Hit.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
To be fair though, SSG definitely compares favorably to SSJ4 as a transformation. I remember from one of the old guides that the multiplier for SSJ1 + Potara might rival SSJ4, and it's made 100% clear that Super Vegetto wouldn't have fared nearly as well against Beerus as SSG did.

That blurb about Vegetto 'perhaps' being more powerful than SSJ4 is from GT Perfect Files -- the same guidebook that stated SSJ2 was never seen again after the Cell saga, lol. It is widely considered to be an extremely unreliable source(even by Herms) -- certainly not an irrefutable reference, like the Daizenshuu, Super-Exciting Guide, V-Jump, etc.

Originally posted by Damborgson
What boost do you guys estimate potara fusion to be?

It is honestly one of the more inconsistent powerups in the franchise, imo(especially since DBS has started using the shit out of it.) /shrug

Super.

GT may have higher multipliers, but Super seems to have retroactively raised the power of the DBZ characters because of their absurd feats in Super.

I personally like the number 80x, for general use, assuming the participants' power levels are equal. It puts base Vegetto around SSJ2 Goku level, and Super Vegetto around 10x SSJ3 Goku level, which sound about right to me personally.

Although, in a sense, the reason Vegetto is so strong isn't just because of his power. As a warrior, he's said to possess both the raw battle instinct of Goku and the focus of Vegeta, making him extremely effective skill-wise. So you could say in the case that the fusees are less compatible, the strength increase could be dramatically lower, although that's frustratingly not looking to be the case with Kefla and all.

The "power multiplication" theory is just bogus though. The ridiculously high numbers you could get out of it aside, it's just arbitrary. Say you used a different metric to describe Goku's and Vegeta's power; what if you qualified each as a "1" on a different scale? Then if you multiplied those, their power wouldn't change at all. A fusion multiplier that relies on the metric used to gauge the involved parties doesn't strike me as all that credible, tbh.

Originally posted by Galan007
Because you have no way of proving/legitimizing most of the multipliers you're throwing around..? As mentioned: it's mostly just personal opinion/conjecture at this point, because NO DBS/God-era multipliers have been referenced in any canon source(s).

It's conjecture but it can't be any lower than that.

Originally posted by Damborgson
What boost do you guys estimate potara fusion to be?

Varies. The old KIoshin practically admitted there isn't a set boost when he claimed Vegetto was especially amped on account of Goku and Vegeta being rivals.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And frankly, that's a highball. Goku's SSG was performing significantly better than Vegeta's 10% SSB, so it wouldn't be unthinkable for SSG to be 20% or more of SSB either. Especially considering how normal SSJ (which is far inferior to SSG) was keeping pace with Hit.

To be fair though, SSG definitely compares favorably to SSJ4 as a transformation. I remember from one of the old guides that the multiplier for SSJ1 + Potara might rival SSJ4, and it's made 100% clear that Super Vegetto wouldn't have fared nearly as well against Beerus as SSG did.

The killer is that GT Goku is just stronger at the base level.

Pretty sure they said Vegeta could not perform at even 10% of his power.

We also have Goku's recent fight with Kefla. SSG was getting beat by base Kefla. SSB was then fighting LSSJ Kefla to nearly a stand still. This is a Kefla that is x50 her base. (going by established DB multipliers) The mulitplier may even be higher since it is a LSSJ form. So one can only assume that a MSSB is at least x50 SSG.

Originally posted by bbrem123
Pretty sure they said Vegeta could not perform at even 10% of his power.

We also have Goku's recent fight with Kefla. SSG was getting beat by base Kefla. SSB was then fighting LSSJ Kefla to nearly a stand still. This is a Kefla that is x50 her base. (going by established DB multipliers) The mulitplier may even be higher since it is a LSSJ form. So one can only assume that a MSSB is at least x50 SSG.

You forgot to mention that Jiren blocked SSG punches with a finger whereas Super Saiyan Blue Goku was able to push Jiren back. He punched the guy through a mountain. Lol... I don't think 50 times is enough; you probably should up that.

Originally posted by carver9
You forgot to mention that Jiren blocked SSG punches with a finger whereas Super Saiyan Blue Goku was able to push Jiren back. He punched the guy through a mountain. Lol... I don't think 50 times is enough; you probably should up that.

Regardless, another prime example is: ASSJ Vegeta vs. Perfect Cell; and FPSSJ Goku vs. Perfect Cell.

All-out strikes from an enraged ASSJ Vegeta were incapable of making Perfect Cell(who hadn't even began to powerup, mind you) so much as flinch. Conversely, FPSSJ Goku was able to give Perfect Cell(who was still suppressing his power, but not nearly as much) a very good fight -- his strikes definitely had a pronounced effect.

I bring this up because the difference between FPSSJ Goku and ASSJ Vegeta was probably around 2-3x(maybe less considering how flabbergasted the Z Fighters were at the 2x amp Gohan gleaned from SSJ2.) IOW, the difference between them was relatively minimal, yet their fights against Cell were WORLDS apart.

...Not sure why it's so hard for some of you to picture the same basic principal applying to God-era powerups..? 😕

So, if Vegeta is a 400, Goku is 1200?

That kind of difference?

That's about where Radditz was to Goku. So if Vegeta is about that difference to Goku, yet Goku has a tremendously more effective attack on Cell (Who was powered up against Goku, but not against Vegeta), can we chalk this up as another example of inconsistency?