^ That only holds true if you have Jiren at a fixed level the entire time(ie. only using 'x' percent of his power against all of Goku's forms.)
However, we literally have NO clue how much power Jiren was using at any given time(could be .01%; could be 99.9%) -- so there's really no way that fight can be used as a means of accurately power scaling, either.
DBS is a real b*tch that way, unfortunately. 🙁
There again, it's hard to scale with any kind of certainty because it was made abundantly clear that Goku's fight with Jiren weakened him immensely, which means he was FAR from full power against Kefla(his depleted stamina was referenced time and time again during that fight.)
...And a taxed Goku probably isn't the best measuring stick. 😛
True. But that shouldn't matter though right? Multipliers are multipliers. If he was only 50% of power it would still just multiply by 50 for his current power level.
A weakened SSG Goku to SSB Goku was around x50 based on his Kefla fight. (using her x50 LSSJ multiplier a the marker)
This fight gives us a good gauge of the multiplier from SSG to SSB imo. I would even say x50 is lowballing based on this being a LSSJ form and not SSJ. Just me two cents though 😬
A multiplier might be a multiplier, but when you start out really weak(and are growing even weaker by the moment), said multiplier isn't going to make you nearly as powerful as it normally would(ie. if you were fresh.)
So again, using a taxed/depleted Goku to powerscale isn't going to give you remotely accurate approximations, tbh.
Not even remotely.
But this happens all the time. You have to laugh at the figures being given all the way back on Namek when Goku first went SSJ, was at the end of his stamina, and fans thought they can get accurate numbers from that.
Or even further back when Vegeta burns up some energy creating a false moon, and yet all the guidebooks say "180,000". Uh, no he wasn't. Not if he wasn't at full strength when he aped out.
Originally posted by Galan007
A multiplier might be a multiplier, but when you start out really weak(and are growing even weaker by the moment), said multiplier isn't going to make you nearly as powerful as it normally would(ie. if you were fresh.)So again, using a taxed/depleted Goku to powerscale isn't going to give you remotely accurate approximations, tbh.
I get what you are saying but a weaken base saiyan that transforms into SSJ is still a x50 multiplier of the weaken base state correct?
Im not using this example to show Goku's power, just using it as multiplier gauge between SSG to SSB.
My thought process here. Let me know where I am wrong. I could just be confusing myself lol.
Base Kefla > Weakened SSG Goku
SSJ Kefla (x50 multiplier) ≈ Weakened SSB Goku
Meaning SSG to SSB is around a x50 multiplier for this weakened Goku.
Again this is just to find the multiplier from SSG to SSB. So to me this multiplier can be translated to a full power Goku as well.
That has been brought up before. Personally, my problem with people assuming Kefla is powering up by a factor of 50x when she goes SSJ, is that she is from an alternate universe -- and beings from different universes/timelines tend to follow different rules(look at Future Trunks' SSJ2 rage form in the anime, for example.) It's kind of like assuming Frost's form-to-form power increases were identical to those of Freeza, simply because Frost is an alternate universe analogue of Freeza... We simply don't know one way or the other -- all we can do is speculate.
That said, you're more than welcome to assume SSB is 50x SSG, but the Kefla scene certainly isn't enough to legitimize that assumption, imo... Goku's enormously depleted state aside, Whis and Beerus heavily implied that SSB is 10x SSG in the manga -- and it's really hard for me to overlook the manga without a darn good reason to, because it is easily the closest thing we have to a canonically-referenced SSB multiplier.
mmm
I keep saying it, but I just don't think there is a way to accurately powerscale the God-level multipliers of DBS... Not at this point, at least. srug
Originally posted by Galan007It HAS to be much less than 2x. Because Future Trunks was > FPSSJ Goku in power but too slow.All-out strikes from an enraged ASSJ Vegeta were incapable of making Perfect Cell(who hadn't even began to powerup, mind you) so much as flinch. Conversely, FPSSJ Goku was able to give Perfect Cell(who was still suppressing his power, but not nearly as much) a very good fight -- his strikes definitely had a pronounced effect.
I bring this up because the difference between FPSSJ Goku and ASSJ Vegeta was probably around 2-3x(maybe less considering how flabbergasted the Z Fighters were at the 2x amp Gohan gleaned from SSJ2.) IOW, the difference between them was relatively minimal, yet their fights against Cell were WORLDS apart.
...Not sure why it's so hard for some of you to picture the same basic principal applying to God-era powerups..? 😕
Originally posted by Galan007I can agree with this. I keep leaning to U6 saiyans being the same as U7 because the fight with Cabba/Vegeta and Caulifla/Goku fight showed very similar power levels. Goku and Caulifla even went transformation for transformation with not to much of gaps in power. I think it is safe to say the multipliers are relatively close.
That has been brought up before. Personally, my problem with people assuming Kefla is powering up by a factor of 50x when she goes SSJ, is that she is from an alternate universe -- and beings from different universes/timelines tend to follow different rules(look at Future Trunks' SSJ2 rage form in the anime, for example.) It's kind of like assuming Frost's form-to-form power increases were identical to those of Freeza, simply because Frost is an alternate universe analogue of Freeza... We simply don't know one way or the other -- all we can do is speculate.That said, you're more than welcome to assume SSB is 50x SSG, but the Kefla scene certainly isn't enough to legitimize that assumption, imo... Goku's enormously depleted state aside, Whis and Beerus heavily implied that SSB is 10x SSG in the manga -- and it's really hard for me to overlook the manga without a darn good reason to, because it is easily the closest thing we have to a canonically-referenced SSB multiplier.
mmmI keep saying it, but I just don't think there is a way to accurately powerscale the God-level multipliers of DBS... Not at this point, at least. srug
Also didn't Whis say "he was not even 10%". Not that he "was 10%" of his power. This is a pretty obscure statement if so and doesn't hold much value.
Originally posted by KentoI am not of the opinion that USSJ Trunks > FPSSJ Goku. In fact, I'd say Goku was actually a good deal more powerful.
It HAS to be much less than 2x. Because Future Trunks was > FPSSJ Goku in power but too slow.
First off, the Z Fighters were awestruck by just HALF of FPSSJ Goku's power(and that was AFTER Trunks had already gone USSJ against Cell, mind you):
https://i.imgur.com/Z7zcA2K.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MRdRAgT.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/uP6wYif.jpg
Secondly, all of the Z Fighters(Trunks included) acted like FPSSJ Goku's max power was the greatest ki they had ever sensed up to that point:
https://i.imgur.com/rIOkTbD.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/cWpmt9Q.jpg
*USSJ Trunks was only ever stated to be stronger than Perfect Cell, at a time when Cell was suppressing the large majority of his power.
Originally posted by KentoAs mentioned above: that was at a time when Perfect Cell was suppressing most of his power.
Cell is the one who stated flatly that Trunks was stronger than him though.Also, Goku got that power, without sacrificing any type of speed. Which in itself would have been amazing.
In both instances I posted, the Z Fighters(Trunks included) were amazed by the raw ki that FPSSJ Goku was generating(he hadn't even really fought yet, remember.) They wouldn't have been so utterly floored by the ki they sensed from Goku if USSJ Trunks had already generated =/> levels of ki.
Originally posted by Galan007Which is why I didn't bring up Piccolo saying it. Cells own words were that Trunks had more power than him, and Cell isn't the type to boast on someone else's power.. He was able to physically hurt Cell, when Vegeta could not even move Cell also. So the gap between FPSSJ Goku, Cell, and USSJ Trunks can't even have been a lot for it to matter who was stronger though. Trunks was just too slow for it to matter his power.
As mentioned above: that was at a time when Perfect Cell was suppressing most of his power.In both instances I posted, the Z Fighters(Trunks included) were amazed by the raw ki that FPSSJ Goku was generating(he hadn't even really fought yet, remember.) They wouldn't have been so utterly floored by the ki they sensed from Goku if USSJ Trunks had already generated =/> levels of ki.
Originally posted by KentoNot exactly. Cell was treating FPSSJ Goku like an equal/peer, even though he [Cell] still wasn't using his full power during their fight.
Which is why I didn't bring up Piccolo saying it. Cells own words were that Trunks had more power than him, and Cell isn't the type to boast on someone else's power.
Originally posted by KentoASSJ Vegeta was unable to faze a heavily suppressed Perfect Cell. USSJ Trunks was stated to be more powerful than that SAME, heavily suppressed, Perfect Cell.
He was able to physically hurt Cell, when Vegeta could not even move Cell also. So the gap between FPSSJ Goku, Cell, and USSJ Trunks can't even have been a lot for it to matter who was stronger though. Trunks was just too slow for it to matter his power.
After all, we know Cell wasn't implying that USSJ Trunks > his own *maximum* power, because at the end of their battle Cell displayed the SAME USSJ-esque transformation/amp as Trunks, just to mock him:
https://i.imgur.com/fBiZvzP.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/U5Wve8Y.jpg
IOW, at any point Cell could have bulked-up and started cranking out the same raw ki as USSJ Trunks -- he simply *chose* not to. Based on that alone we know, for a fact, that Cell was only comparing USSJ Trunks to his current, heavily suppressed level... Because even that bulked-up form was still nowhere near his 'full' power.
As mentioned above: Trunks, Vegeta, Piccolo and Krillin simply would not have been awestruck by the ki FPSSJ Goku was generating if USSJ Trunks had already generated a ki =/> full power Perfect Cell. Heck, Krillin(who personally sensed the power of USSJ Trunks at ground zero) explicitly stated: "[Goku's] CHI is immeasurable..! He's beyond ALL of us!":
https://i.imgur.com/rIOkTbD.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/cWpmt9Q.jpg
*And that's aside from Trunks himself(after training in the RoSaT a SECOND time, mind you) stating that Goku's chi was "unbelievable"...
tl;dr
All context considered, this is how I view the *raw ki* output of these characters:
Perfect Cell(power-weighted) > Perfect Cell(full power) > Perfect Cell(slightly suppressed) ~ FPSSJ Goku >>> USSJ Trunks = Perfect Cell(bulked-up) > Perfect Cell(heavily suppressed) >>> ASSJ Vegeta.
