GT vs. DBS

Again, the problem is trying to use DBS-era Gotenks as a measuring stick. As I've just shown you, his power in DBS was portrayed vastly different than how it was originally portrayed in Z.

Like I said earlier: per DBS, the BoG arc is set a mere 6 months after the Boo saga, yet SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta(rage-boost) are regarded by Beerus as substantially more powerful than anyone else he'd fought... And he fought Gotenks(SSJ3 Gotenks in the manga), as well as Mystic Gohan.

ie. at the start of DBS, SSJ3 Goku ~ SSJ2 RB Vegeta > Mystic Gohan > Gotenks.

...And there is absolutely NO reason to believe the powers of Goku and Vegeta had improved much(if at all) in the 6 months between the Boo arc and BoG. Moreover, when Beerus stated that base Goku was weaker than Freeza, no one disagreed with him, and we were given absolutely no reason to assume he was wrong. That is simply the level of power Goku was intended to be operating at when DBS/BoG first began.

Fact is, Gohan and Gotenks were clearly no longer intended to be dozens of times more powerful than Goku and Vegeta in DBS. Toriyama has obviously changed his mind about the younger generation supplanting the older generation -- it's the "Goku & Vegeta Show" now, and their kids are little more than comedic relief on a good day.

Originally posted by Galan007
ie. at the start of DBS, SSJ3 Goku ~ SSJ2 RB Vegeta

So you believe the anime effectively retconned the movie part, in which Kamesennin stated that Vegeta surpassed Goku?

Originally posted by Galan007
Fact is, Gohan and Gotenks were clearly no longer intended to be dozens of times more powerful than Goku and Vegeta in DBS. Toriyama has obviously changed his mind.

That, or they never were in the first place. ermm

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That, or they never were in the first place. ermm

👆

Suddenly filler scenes make a lot of sense 😂

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
So you believe the anime effectively retconned the movie part, in which Kamesennin stated that Vegeta surpassed Goku?

I take that as Beerus essentially saying that Goku and Vegeta were roughly on par with on another, but Goku might've been slightly superior. /shrug

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That, or they never were in the first place. ermm

mmm

Main reason I prefer Super:

Vegeta catch's up to Goku on his own.

I don't think Vegeta is even capable of SSJ4 without the Brute Ray.

Originally posted by cdtm
Main reason I prefer Super:

Vegeta catch's up to Goku on his own.

I don't think Vegeta is even capable of SSJ4 without the Brute Ray.

Correct, BUT...

... keep in mind Vegeta lost his damn tail, lol.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Correct, BUT...

... keep in mind Vegeta lost his damn tail, lol.

That's it exactly. 👆

Goku could do it himself, because his chibization restored the tail (Along with a lot of work to bring it out.)

Originally posted by cdtm
That's it exactly. 👆

Goku could do it himself, because his chibization restored the tail (Along with a lot of work to bring it out.)

So once again, GT = Goku Time... he was wanked in every episode.

And he still is being wanked in Super... keep in mind Vegeta can't even access the Imperfect Ultra Instinct state.

Main character power that Goku has aside, they still did Vegeta a solid, versus Toppo, etc. The GT writers on the other hand clearly hated Vegeta. Giving him SSJ4 by the end was just an afterthought with how little screentime he had with it even.

Agreed, he didn't get much time to shine, unless we count Baby Vegeta.

He's still outperformed everybody else that wasn't Goku, though... including Majuub and Gohan.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Main character power that Goku has aside, they still did Vegeta a solid, versus Toppo, etc. The GT writers on the other hand clearly hated Vegeta. Giving him SSJ4 by the end was just an afterthought with how little screentime he had with it even.

Originally posted by Galan007
They only gave Vegeta SSJ4 just to introduce SSJ4 Gogeta, imo.

That's what it looked like, yes 🙁

Least it lead to a really good Budokai 3 story to play around with.

His battle with SSJ4 Goku was awesome. And his 10X Final Shine is like the funniest move in the game.

"Funniest" or "most fun"? 😛

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
"Funniest" or "most fun"? 😛

Heh, that autocorrect. 😮

Originally posted by Galan007
In the anime, after Beerus fights/owns RB Vegeta he states: "It's been quite a while since I've used 10% of my true strength... I have to say, I had a bit more fun with that Saiyan on the North Kai's planet."

That would certainly make much more sense in the context of the previous sentence.

Originally posted by Galan007
The original Z material certainly paints the picture that Gotenks had surpassed Goku by a considerable margin.

The line I quoted was taken from crunchyroll:
http://i.imgur.com/XJTJESH.jpg

Their translations are typically accurate. srug

They're often pretty poor, actually. I'll check it out when I get home.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Didn't he say, "I had a bit more fun than* with that Saiyan on the North Kai's planet?"

That would certainly make much more sense in the context of the previous sentence.

Agreed, it would.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
They're often pretty poor, actually. I'll check it out when I get home.

👆