Concerning the Dreamers, I don’t believe we should punish the kids for something they had no control over.
But at the same time, I do have a problem with those same Dreamers that are considered adults, and their parents. These Dreamers been here since they’ve been Children right? Yet their parents and said Dreamers refuse to take the proper steps to become citizens. Why not?
We know under President Obama’s policy, they were protected from deportations. Yet most of them never took the step to began the process of being legal immigrants.
Not sure how this got onto the subject of immigration, lol.
The simplest question, if you want to be completely selfish and only look after American interests, is are they productive members of society? If the answer is "yes" then it's f*cking stupid to deport them out of some principled defense of US immigration policy.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not sure how this got onto the subject of immigration, lol.The simplest question, if you want to be completely selfish and only look after American interests, is are they productive members of society? If the answer is "yes" then it's f*cking stupid to deport them out of some principled defense of US immigration policy.
Well here is the thing, until recently we were told they commit less crime, etc. but we have this, and I am still not sure if I believe it but:
Originally posted by Surtur
Lol wait a minute, this can't be true. Because if it is...it is good for Trumps agenda but it can't be true...right?[b]“According to statistics from the U.S. Sentencing Commission, non-citizens are actually far more likely to commit serious crimes than Americans are,” said Carlson.
“Non-citizens account for 22 percent, more than a fifth of all federal murder convictions.”
“18 percent of fraud convictions.”
“33 percent of money laundering convictions,” added Carlson.
“29 percent of drug trafficking convictions and 72 percent of convictions for drug possession.”
Huh? [/B]
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not sure how this got onto the subject of immigration, lol.The simplest question, if you want to be completely selfish and only look after American interests, is are they productive members of society? If the answer is "yes" then it's f*cking stupid to deport them out of some principled defense of US immigration policy.
Disagree.
Slaves were "useful to society".
While the worn out "They took our jobs!" excuse does have some merit, imo (If there's people out of work now, bringing in labor hurts their chances all the more..), I'm far more concerned with immigrants being exploited.
Many here on a work permit basis are horrendously underpaid, and undocumenteds have it even worse, on account of the fact many are afraid/unable to stand up for fair treatment, many are unable to even voice objection to working conditions, and are essentially "captive employee's" by their bosses.
This is ignored by liberals and conservatives alike.
Originally posted by cdtm
Disagree.Slaves were "useful to society".
While the worn out "They took our jobs!" excuse does have some merit, imo (If there's people out of work now, bringing in labor hurts their chances all the more..), I'm far more concerned with immigrants being exploited.
Many here on a work permit basis are horrendously underpaid, and undocumenteds have it even worse, on account of the fact many are afraid/unable to stand up for fair treatment, many are unable to even voice objection to working conditions, and are essentially "captive employee's" by their bosses.
This is ignored by liberals and conservatives alike.
So the solution to exploitation is to force them to go back home? If this exploitation were worse for them than being back wherever, why are they choosing to stay here?
Originally posted by Surtur
But you agree that a long established liberal talking point is no more, right? Assuming of course this is true.
I don't know about legal immigrants (which you presumably aren't against anyway), but it wouldn't surprise me if undocumented immigrants had higher crime rates than the general population. In fact I'd be really surprised if they didn't.
Doesn't really matter though because you usually don't do collective punishment and no I'm not interested in a "technically we aren't punishing them..." technicality.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
So the solution to exploitation is to force them to go back home? If this exploitation were worse for them than being back wherever, why are they choosing to stay here?
Well, it's a complicated problem.
While I'm not unsympethetic to the plight of a refugee, my argument isn't strictly about their welfare, in and of itself. It's about holding those that benefit from such exploitation accountable, and fixing the system that allows them to be exploited.
Obviously, nobody wants to send someone back into a death camp. But I strongly believe the issue of immigration is less "about" them, and more about what the powers that be can get away with, and have gotten away with.
I've seen it firsthand in my home town, with a chain of five Dunkin' Donuts. The owner came from nothing, and built up a business that allowed him to live in some posh neighborhoods, and live a very decadent lifestyle.
Which is admirable.
And then it was all taken away, when he was outed as exploiting undocumented immigrants, subjecting them to insane working conditions/hours, skirting all kinds of labor laws.
But he got sloppy.. He didn't even bother training his workers in basic english, near the end. Enough people probably complained, and he was investigated..
Originally posted by cdtm
Well, it's a complicated problem.While I'm not unsympethetic to the plight of a refugee, my argument isn't strictly about their welfare, in and of itself. It's about holding those that benefit from such exploitation accountable, and fixing the system that allows them to be exploited.
Obviously, nobody wants to send someone back into a death camp. But I strongly believe the issue of immigration is less "about" them, and more about what the powers that be can get away with, and have gotten away with.
I've seen it firsthand in my home town, with a chain of five Dunkin' Donuts. The owner came from nothing, and built up a business that allowed him to live in some posh neighborhoods, and live a very decadent lifestyle.
Which is admirable.
And then it was all taken away, when he was outed as exploiting undocumented immigrants, subjecting them to insane working conditions/hours, skirting all kinds of labor laws.
But he got sloppy.. He didn't even bother training his workers in basic english, near the end. Enough people probably complained, and he was investigated..
Honestly I don't think what you're saying makes sense. If exploitation is bad because it hurts people, why is the solution...to do something that hurts them even more?
As for letting people get away with exploiting people, if we agree it's generally better for the immigrants to be here then we agree that the employers are doing a net good by employing them even if we want them to do even more good by not exploiting them.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
I don't know about legal immigrants (which you presumably aren't against anyway), but it wouldn't surprise me if undocumented immigrants had higher crime rates than the general population. In fact I'd be really surprised if they didn't.Doesn't really matter though because you usually don't do collective punishment and no I'm not interested in a "technically we aren't punishing them..." technicality.
Well the thing is, a common talking point is that they commit less crime though. Surely you've heard about that lol.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Honestly I don't think what you're saying makes sense. If exploitation is bad because it hurts people, why is the solution...to do something that hurts them even more?As for letting people get away with exploiting people, if we agree it's generally better for the immigrants to be here then we agree that the employers are doing a net good by employing them even if we want them to do even more good by not exploiting them.
Were factories performing a net good, by employing young children for 15-20 hour shifts?
I just think it is pretty astounding because I mean...for years...and years, we've been told the opposite of this. I wonder how much press this will get. I saw this guy arguing against Tucker and...he had no real argument against these stats lol. All he could say was that it was immigrants who suffered most and this other stuff...but no direct refuting of these stats. This was the Executive Director of the National Immigration Forum.
That shocked me. Usually you'd see someone argue against it, but this guy couldn't do it, and was kind of left speechless at the end.
Yes I know they kinda sound like chipmunks lol. I think it's a copyright thing, they change the pitch in the video or something.