US Supreme Pizza Part II: Bake a Cake

So now it is clear this was a set up:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/08/colorado-civil-rights-commission-jack-phillips-case/

"In September 2017, a caller asked Phillips to design a birthday cake for Satan that would feature an image of Satan smoking marijuana. The name “Scardina” appeared on the caller identification. A few days earlier, a person had emailed Jack asking for a cake with a similar theme — except featuring “an upside-down cross, under the head of Lucifer.” This same emailer reminded Phillips that “religion is a protected class.”

On the very day that Phillips won his case at the Supreme Court, a person emailed with yet another deliberately offensive design request:

I’m thinking a three-tiered white cake. Cheesecake frosting. And the topper should be a large figure of Satan, licking a 9″ black Dildo. I would like the dildo to be an actual working model, that can be turned on before we unveil the cake. I can provide it for you if you don’t have the means to procure one yourself.

And finally, two days later, a person identifying as “Autumn Marie” visited Phillips’s shop and requested a cake featuring a pentagram. According to ADF, “Phillips believes that person was Autumn Scardina.”

And the specific cake in question now was called in on the exact day the supreme court said they'd hear the bakers case. Yup, seems like a set up.

Well, she's a disgusting human being.

Originally posted by MythLord
Pretty sure the school was closed because some parents legitimately wanted to act on it.

I feel like baking a cake isn't quite as bad as receiving death threats, yeah.

Also, of course a bigger deal is going to be made about the ****ing cake thing, for two very important reasons.

Firstly there's actual controversy with the cake thing. Nobody here is actually arguing that this transgender kid should receive death threats, and in fact me and Robtard despite usually disagreeing on stuff both said that the people who made these threats should be prosecuted. On the other hand while there aren't people on here arguing this trans kid should be sent death threats there are people arguing this baker should not have sovereignty over his own labor and expressive faculties and that he should be forced to partake in something he finds disagreeable. In fact the school did take steps to protect the student, whereas the baker had to take it all the way up to the supreme court for the legal system to protect his rights rather than being openly hostile towards him.

And second, there's a huge difference between the actions taken by private citizens and the actions taken by the state itself. If a private citizen threatens someone with death or worse actually kills them, then there will be legal recourse from the state in defense of people's right not to be murdered. If the legal system rules against the baker here, then it will be established in our legal system that not only this baker but everyone in similar circumstances will have their right to their own labor and expressive faculties violated by the state. And there is no legal recourse for the state infringing upon your rights.

So I'm sorry, but no, this is a completely disingenuous comparison you're making here Wulf, one that doesn't take into account the fact that the cake incident constitutes a fundamental debate about people's rights within the United States, that this baker has also received harassment and death threats, that the threat of the state is more concerning than the threat of private citizens, and that this is an actual controversial topic whereas nobody on here actually thinks we should kill trans people or send them death threats. This is a very dishonest way of trying to smear people who are deeply concerned about the state of liberty, property rights, freedom of association, and freedom of expression in their country's legal system.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
To many personal pronouns, no one asked for manifesto. 😘

And there is no proverbial gun involved. He is facing a fine, not forced labour. If the baker does not wish to bake cakes without discriminating against his customers he can go and choose a more suitable profession, ideally not in retail.

That said I agree that people should have control over their own labour and who they dole it out to. A baker should be able to refuse an alt-rightie's racist cake on the basis they find it repugnant, just as Surt should be able to refuse to dog-sit for the person who kissed his girlfriend, even if it was only once. I draw the line at protected classes because though they do not have a right to that person's labour, this concerns the right to fair and equal treatment.

That's kinda a bingo right there. Kinda a big bingo.

There's a very legal difference between telling someone to leave your place of business because they're a Neo-Nazi and you're offended by their Nazi beliefs, compared to telling someone to leave your store because they're Black and you're offended by their skin color.

The best type of laws are the one based on the arbitrary definition of what people find offensive. Not wanting to work for a Neo-Nazi is fine, but it's offensive to not want to work for a black person. Therefore one should be fine, but the latter should get you sent to prison.

Is the StarWars forum completely filled with Alt-Right boyz now? Weird. Anyhow, anti-discrimination laws exist and they mostly didn't just spring up for no reason. If you don't like that discrimination against a person's skin color is illegal, I suggest you vote for people who will work to tear that down. edit: Or maybe just do some soul-searching as to why you believe that way?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He will go to jail yeah, for not paying a fine.

At no point will he be forced to make a baked good via threat of force. Clear?

Originally posted by MythLord
Christians in America: forced to bake cakes... OH MY GOODNESS!
Trans/gays in America: there's an Open Hunting Season, with parents threatening a 12 year old transgender on how they will murder/mutilate them, forcing the school to close down for a few days... No biggie!

Truly, it is the cake demanding leftists who are ruining America with their evil love of pastry.

Originally posted by Robtard
Is the StarWars forum completely filled with Alt-Right boyz now? Weird.

Originally posted by Robtard
Anyhow, anti-discrimination laws exist and they mostly didn't just spring up for no reason. If you don't like that discrimination against skin color is illegal, I suggest you vote for people who will work to tear that down. Or maybe do some soul-searching as to why you believe that way?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
You know Freshest is black right?

Because people should have ownership over their own labor. It's the same reason I think legitimate hate speech should be legal. I don't like actual hate speech, but I think a person should have sovereignty over their own words, and in this instance I think people should have the liberty and property rights to manage their business as they see fit.

Irrelevant. Alt-Right is a mindset, not a skin color. Jeez.

People absolutely should. There's also anti-discrimination laws though. As I said, if you want people to be able to go "No n****rs in my store", "No Jews in my store!", "No f****ts! in my store!" etc., then vote for people that will work to tear down our laws. As of right now, those laws exist.

Originally posted by Robtard
That's kinda a bingo right there. Kinda a big bingo.

There's a very legal difference between telling someone to leave your place of business because they're a Neo-Nazi and you're offended by their Nazi beliefs, compared to telling someone to leave your store because they're Black and you're offended by their skin color.

Put it this way, if at some point Trump gets legislation through that puts political beliefs under a protected class, wouldn't it be screwed up for him to demand that Madonna, Cher, and all the other liberal artists who hate him to write songs supporting him and preform them at his rally's while he's on the campaign trail in the next election?

Originally posted by Robtard
Irrelevant. Alt-Right is a mindset, not a skin color. Jeez.

People absolutely should. There's also anti-discrimination laws though. As I said, if you want people to be able to go "No n****rs in my store", "No Jews in my store!", "No f****ts! in my store!" etc., then vote for people that will work to tear down our laws. As of right now, those laws exist.

And the first amendment also exists, and making a customized cake for a specific type of celebration constitutes a form of personal expression. I do think this is an issue related to both freedom of expression and the first amendment is enshrined on a constitutional rather than legislative level. Even from a legal standpoint under our current legal structure, the first amendment should be held above anti-discrimination laws in this instance.

Originally posted by darthgoober
That's not in line with what the guy did though. He didn't refuse to serve any gays or trans, he made it clear to them that they had the option of buying anything that was already made. You can't demand that an artist of any form commission a work of art for you that they consider to be morally wrong... it's just messed up.

Hey, I'm okay now with what this guy is doing because he's still offering some services, though I find his homophobia to be a despicable.

My comment was on Beni correctly pointing out the erroneous conflating of different scenarios that people are doing. There's a legal difference between denying someone service because they're Anti-Semitic and you don't like that, compared to denying someone service because they're gay and Asian and you don't like gays and Asians.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Being in favor of someone's personal liberty to run their business as they see fit doesn't make you alt-right.

And the first amendment also exists, and making a customized cake for a specific type of celebration constitutes a form of personal expression. I do think this is an issue related to both freedom of expression and the first amendment is enshrined on a constitutional rather than legislative level. Even from a legal standpoint under our current legal structure, the first amendment should be held above anti-discrimination laws in this instance.

See my response to Goober above, it can answer this too.

Originally posted by Robtard
Hey, I'm okay now with what this guy is doing because he's still offering some services, though I find his homophobia to be a despicable.

My comment was on Beni correctly pointing out the erroneous conflating of different scenarios that people are doing. There's a legal difference between denying someone service because they're Anti-Semitic and you don't like that, compared to denying someone service because they're gay and Asian and you don't like gays and Asians.

It's not even proven that he denied service because they were gay though. He denied to bake the cake because it was for a gay wedding, which is an event he disagrees with.

It seems like it was more about what event the cake was for than the identity of the person asking for it.

I get the sense based around his displayed company policy that if a gay person came in and asked for a custom cake for something more innocuous like a birthday party he wouldn't have had any objections to it.

Originally posted by darthgoober
See that I can get on board ith. I do think that discrimination laws should be abolished because they've run their course, but I have no problem acknowledging the laws as they stand.

Originally posted by Robtard
Disagreed that they've run their course. Discrimination based on skin color, sexual orientation, sex, race etc still exist and people; especially in positions of power where it matters most still discriminate.

I honestly think that "Whites only" stores would be a public service because it would mean that minorities were less likely to run into racists at places like Wal-Mart.

Your post is so very odd. Yes and no, cos it's not like David Duke is President or CEO of a fortune 500; where someone like that is beyond open with their beliefs/views.

The thing about food service and minorities. Now sure how that has anything to do with what we're saying?

As far as "true racism", did you not see the Charlottsville rally? We literally had hundreds of Nazis marching like it was 1933 Germany and I assure you that wasn't all the Nazis in America; let alone all the other people and/or groups with similar beliefs. Racism in America is a problem, friend. Are things massively better than say 20, 30, 50+ years ago, absolutely. But there's still a problem in our law enforcement, in our legal system and our penal system when it comes to a person's race.

I honestly think that's whacked. I sincerely hope we never go back to something like "Whites Only Restroom" and I was born after that ended. Just ugliness for a society to accept that as normal. Little acceptance steps like that can also lead to greater ugliness.