Luke Skywalker vs. Snoke (obvious spoilers)

Originally posted by quanchi112
Dude, this is who Luke is. He dropped his saber and wouldn't even finish Vader in Rotj. I also don't believe Leia or Han would have caused him to fall back. Luke fought back and disarmed her. She donned the lightsaber and Luke fell back. If he never fought back you'd have a point but he clearly defended himself and still lost his balance.

Defending himself with a stick != using telekinesis on someone, which the Jedi by habit rarely do anyway. Do you think Luke broke down and confessed because he was scared Rey would kill him? Like, after making it clear he was waiting to die, (and knowing Rey wouldn't actually kill him), the guy who talked shit to Palpatine was just scared for himself? No, he obviously broke down *emotionally*, and his father's lightsaber probably didn't help.

Like, taking a step back and doing a gut/sanity check, is "Luke can't threaten Rey in the Force" really more plausible than "Luke was an emotional wreck"? IMO it's pretty obvious and only a problem because you're over analyzing the internal consistency of his self defense choices.

Sent you a PM Ell (sorry of it seems like I'm pestering)

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Defending himself with a stick != using telekinesis on someone, which the Jedi by habit rarely do anyway. Do you think Luke broke down and confessed because he was scared Rey would kill him? Like, after making it clear he was waiting to die, (and knowing Rey wouldn't actually kill him), the guy who talked shit to Palpatine was just scared for himself? No, he obviously broke down *emotionally*, and his father's lightsaber probably didn't help.

Like, taking a step back and doing a gut/sanity check, is "Luke can't threaten Rey in the Force" really more plausible than "Luke was an emotional wreck"?

Your whole initial point had to do with a person not defending himself but in this instance he did defend himself. I didn't say she was going to kill him but she was clearly someone who affected him by him losing balance in that scene. Snoke disarmed her at will and moved her at will. It's speculation whether or not Luke could do so all out but it doesn't help that Luke cut himself off from the force for years so it only makes more sense Snoke is more powerful since he didn't go into semi retirement.

Snoke was more impressive against Ben and Rey. Regardless of your reasoning it's an objective fact Snoke was demonstrably superior than Luke in relation to those two.

Yeah but you're describing an emotional issue, not a combative one. Luke didn't fear Rey's potential because he thought "she could beat me in a fight".

If we follow that logic let's say Rey > Palpatine 'cause Luke wasn't scared of him! And Rey > Vader because she did better against Luke, right?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah but you're describing an emotional issue, not a combative one. Luke didn't fear Rey's potential because he thought "she could beat me in a fight".

If we follow that logic let's say Rey > Palpatine 'cause Luke wasn't scared of him! And Rey > Vader because she did better against Luke, right?

I never said Rey was greater in skill than Luke or Palpatine but in terms of force power she's amazing. Both Ben and her are rising in power to be the yin to the yang. I also didn't say she'd defeat Luke in an all out fight. What I am saying is Snoke proved to what degree his force powers are superior to Rey's. Luke didn't so a fact outweighs speculation. There's far more evidence Snoke defeats Luke.

It's fair to say Luke's powers are speculative, but that doesn't mean they're weak. If you want to go the speculation route we have to use:

1. Accolades, power scaling and common sense, which say Luke had much of Anakin's potential and many decades to improve after beating Vader in RotJ, and

2. His illusion/projection feat which is the best Force feat in live action Star Wars.

Imho punking Kylo from across the galaxy >>> TK'ing Rey and tossing her lightsaber around. That doesn't mean Luke >>> Snoke because the contexts are so different.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's fair to say Luke's powers are speculative, but that doesn't mean they're weak. If you want to go the speculation route we have to use:

1. Accolades, power scaling and common sense, which say Luke had much of Anakin's potential and many decades to improve after beating Vader in RotJ, and

2. His illusion/projection feat which is the best Force feat in live action Star Wars.

Imho punking Kylo from across the galaxy >>> TK'ing Rey and tossing her lightsaber around. That doesn't mean Luke >>> Snoke because the contexts are so different.

Wouldn't it just be the best Illusion feat? Cause The Force isn't one thing, but an application of different things. Just cause someone has good abilities with illusion doesn't mean everything else would be the same as that.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Wouldn't it just be the best Illusion feat? Cause The Force isn't one thing, but an application of different things. Just cause someone has good abilities with illusion doesn't mean everything else would be the same as that.

True, which is why I put it under speculative for this fight. It's just guesswork.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's fair to say Luke's powers are speculative, but that doesn't mean they're weak. If you want to go the speculation route we have to use:

1. Accolades, power scaling and common sense, which say Luke had much of Anakin's potential and many decades to improve after beating Vader in RotJ, and

2. His illusion/projection feat which is the best Force feat in live action Star Wars.

Imho punking Kylo from across the galaxy >>> TK'ing Rey and tossing her lightsaber around. That doesn't mean Luke >>> Snoke because the contexts are so different.

👆

Agreed. Luke display at the end of TLJ was a level of mastery that we've never seen before in the films.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's fair to say Luke's powers are speculative, but that doesn't mean they're weak. If you want to go the speculation route we have to use:

1. Accolades, power scaling and common sense, which say Luke had much of Anakin's potential and many decades to improve after beating Vader in RotJ, and

2. His illusion/projection feat which is the best Force feat in live action Star Wars.

Imho punking Kylo from across the galaxy >>> TK'ing Rey and tossing her lightsaber around. That doesn't mean Luke >>> Snoke because the contexts are so different. [/B]

1. I agree he has potential and is extremely powerful but cutting himself off from the force doesn't improve his abilities.

2. It happened on a force nexus IMO but let's ignore that. What makes it the best and how is it relevant in a vs. battle.

He expended all his energy doing so and he was there to stall time for the resistance to escape. He didn't prove he's beat Kylo in an all out fight. To me he proved on a nexus he still had incredible concentration to pull the feat off.

Snoke's feat of bridging Kylo to Rey is amazing as well in its own right but has little bearing on his powers in a versus fight.

Originally posted by ares834
👆

Agreed. Luke display at the end of TLJ was a level of mastery that we've never seen before in the films.

So we use force nexus to discredit Luke's feats but not severe emotional distress to mitigate his losses?

Anyway, I honestly don't see how TK'ing Rey, who hadn't shown any training or knowledge in defending against TK or even using it to that point, is any more relevant. At least Luke's signals general power and mastery, which we can assume doesn't magically stop at projections.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So we use force nexus to discredit Luke's feats but not severe emotional distress to mitigate his losses?

Anyway, I honestly don't see how TK'ing Rey, who hadn't shown any training or knowledge in defending against TK or even using it to that point, is any more relevant. At least Luke's signals general power and mastery, which we can assume doesn't magically stop at projections.

She resisted Kylo getting into her mind prior to even knowing she had powers. Snoke explained her rise in the force to counter Kylo's rise in power. We see they are force equals when they try to grapple the lightsaber. Snoke broke her mind and took the info Kylo was unable to retrieve. Snoke is on another level.

Luke's greatest feat still occurred via an amp and it doesn't prove he'd massacre Ben or Rey in a physical fight. Not saying he wouldn't but we see Snoke casually dismisses both Kylo and Rey. Snoke is objectively more impressive.

Originally posted by ares834
Considering his dialogue, Snoke appears to be sub-Vader.

Luke may be too.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Luke may be too.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Luke may be too.

From emotional turmoil and rust, sure. But in base power that makes no logical sense - 60's is too young for someone of Luke's potential to decline (Palpatine, Dooku)

Palpatine and Dooku weren't mentally broken hermits who completely shut away the force for ten-some-odd years. If they became stronger with age then it was because they were actively training or seeking knowledge.

I probably agree that pre-exile Luke should be stronger than he was in RotJ, but I don't really see any reason to disagree with Hamill's comparison between himself in RotJ and himself in TLJ.

Spoiler:
Dear god it's gonna be the Rebels Maul debate all over again, isn't it?

Snoke believes that only Kylo with his potential realized can defeat Luke and tried hard to prevent the Resistance bringing him to their side. That there shows Luke>Snoke though an argument can be made that Snoke is referring pre tfa Luke.

Luke wins.

lol Luke would anal rape Snoke. No Lube