Originally posted by The EllimistVader had to goad him into fighting. He also tosses his lightsaber in retardation with Palpatine in the same ****ing room.
"Luke usually doesn't want to fight" - oh, please. Luke tosses his lightsaber away after he had beaten Vader, who by the way is his father with good still in him while Snoke isn't and doesn't. He didn't know of the Emperor's abilities and thought Vader would turn (correctly). He is not some sort of pacifist who will just sit there and let Snoke kill him."I debate based off the facts provided" - dude, you were just provided a "fact" that says Luke > Snoke and are countering it with pseudo-psychoanalysis.
I don't think he'd approach Snoke in the same manner but Luke clearly has been more of a pansy than a badass warrior. I don't think he'd let Snoke kill him. I do think Snoke would defeat him with what we see in the film.
No, it doesn't. That's an opinion and destiny related which makes no logical sense considering what we see of Kylo in this film. We see Snoke blatantly above the power of a Skywalker (Ben Solo) and wanted Luke dead as quickly as possible. Snoke wasn't going to keep training Kylo and make sure he's at his best to send after Luke once he discovered his location. He was going to annihilate the entire island after Rey was killed. That doesn't mean he's going to send Kylo to personally kill him. We already know Snoke >>>Kylo in the film.
Luke already says it's ridiculous to assume just himself and his laser sword could do anything to end this. What he can do is inspire hope. That's what Snoke wants to destroy that and the Jedi who often inspire it.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Vader had to goad him into fighting. He also tosses his lightsaber in retardation with Palpatine in the same ****ing room.I don't think he'd approach Snoke in the same manner but Luke clearly has been more of a pansy than a badass warrior. I don't think he'd let Snoke kill him. I do think Snoke would defeat him with what we see in the film.
No, it doesn't. That's an opinion and destiny related which makes no logical sense considering what we see of Kylo in this film. We see Snoke blatantly above the power of a Skywalker (Ben Solo) and wanted Luke dead as quickly as possible. Snoke wasn't going to keep training Kylo and make sure he's at his best to send after Luke once he discovered his location. He was going to annihilate the entire island after Rey was killed. That doesn't mean he's going to send Kylo to personally kill him. We already know Snoke >>>Kylo in the film.
Luke already says it's ridiculous to assume just himself and his laser sword could do anything to end this. What he can do is inspire hope. That's what Snoke wants to destroy that and the Jedi who often inspire it.
Dude, you can keep saying Snoke > Luke but its fact and pointed by people here that its written in a canon book that Snoke knows only someone of Skywalker bloodline can kill Luke.
Arguing a boy brought the ceiling down on Snoke is ridiculous, Luke was not in his right mind there anyway.
Originally posted by darth venkiSnoke admitted he was wrong about Luke in the film once he discovered what he was up to. He also was going to annihilate and give him the death he deserved. He made no mention of Kylo killing him. Just stop with ignoring the film and badly misinterpreting the visual dictionary.
Dude, you can keep saying Snoke > Luke but its fact and pointed by people here that its written in a canon book that Snoke knows only someone of Skywalker bloodline can kill Luke.Arguing a boy brought the ceiling down on Snoke is ridiculous, Luke was not in his right mind there anyway.
Ben's instincts defeated Luke. That's a fact. Maybe Luke shouldn't approach his nephew with a lightsaber while the kid is asleep. Creepy old bastard.
Snoke is greater than Luke by far. Rey put him down when she wielded her saber and Ben defeated him after rem sleep.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Vader had to goad him into fighting. He also tosses his lightsaber in retardation with Palpatine in the same ****ing room.I don't think he'd approach Snoke in the same manner but Luke clearly has been more of a pansy than a badass warrior. I don't think he'd let Snoke kill him. I do think Snoke would defeat him with what we see in the film.
No, it doesn't. That's an opinion and destiny related which makes no logical sense considering what we see of Kylo in this film. We see Snoke blatantly above the power of a Skywalker (Ben Solo) and wanted Luke dead as quickly as possible. Snoke wasn't going to keep training Kylo and make sure he's at his best to send after Luke once he discovered his location. He was going to annihilate the entire island after Rey was killed. That doesn't mean he's going to send Kylo to personally kill him. We already know Snoke >>>Kylo in the film.
Luke already says it's ridiculous to assume just himself and his laser sword could do anything to end this. What he can do is inspire hope. That's what Snoke wants to destroy that and the Jedi who often inspire it.
Luke wasn't trying to kill Vader because Vader was his father and he still saw good in him. That context doesn't remotely translate here.
By that logic, we might as well say that Snoke isn't going to attack Luke at all but just try to play catch with his lightsaber and then comically narrate his thoughts like he does with Rey.
So you don't trust Snoke's explicit opinion that he's lesser than Luke, but you extrapolate from a mentally beaten Luke's being afraid of Rey's potential and scared of Anakin's lightsaber that maybe he's not more powerful than her by a wide enough margin to be more powerful than Snoke?
Let's remove the double standards and absurdities (like saying Luke won't fight to kill because he didn't against Vader, his own father) and just work with the evidence at hand. You can't say Snoke is more powerful than Luke because he throws around Rey's lightsaber.
Originally posted by The EllimistI didn't say Luke wouldn't fight Snoke I just said he's always been a bit of a pussy.
Luke wasn't trying to kill Vader because Vader was his father and he still saw good in him. That context doesn't remotely translate here.By that logic, we might as well say that Snoke isn't going to attack Luke at all but just try to play catch with his lightsaber and then comically narrate his thoughts like he does with Rey.
So you don't trust Snoke's explicit opinion that he's lesser than Luke, but you extrapolate from a mentally beaten Luke's being afraid of Rey's potential and scared of Anakin's lightsaber that maybe he's not more powerful than her by a wide enough margin to be more powerful than Snoke?
Let's remove the double standards and absurdities (like saying Luke won't fight to kill because he didn't against Vader, his own father) and just work with the evidence at hand. You can't say Snoke is more powerful than Luke because he throws around Rey's lightsaber.
Snoke was going to have her killed in the cruelest way possible by having her new buddy Kylo do the deed. It all works out if he has Kylo kill his uncle.
He isn't lesser than Luke. That's never been established and your interpretation isn't a fact. Snoke admits in the film he was wrong about Luke. It's about as relevant as saying Palpatine believed Luke would turn to the dark side. When he didn't he took other measures. The same is here when Snoke finds out about Luke and assesses Rey is the one who is rising in power to balance out Kylo's darkness. He will have her killed by Kylo then blow up Luke's island.
I can say he looked more impressive against Rey and Luke. We don't see Luke casually manipulate her body at his will with the force. You're also ignoring he cut himself off for years so it doesn't make sense he'd be as powerful.
Snoke also bridged the two which shows tremendous force power. I don't like to bring that feat up because it's irrelevant in a fight but I know you guys adore your feats.
lol if you want to discount feats then fine, by narrative spirit / accolades Luke is the grandson of the Force itself lol. Anyway:
1. You claim Luke is a pussy. Other than the first part of TLJ, this is literally the antithesis of his character. Your only example is Vader, which honestly makes me think you didn't even watch the Original Trilogy if you think Luke didn't kill Vader out of fear when it was the exact opposite.
Seriously, I have no idea how you can use his fight with Vader as evidence of cowardice or a lack of fighting spirit and maintain a straight face. Like do you realize how comically the point of the Throne Room scene sailed over your head?
Luke didn't kill Vader because he saw the light in him. He will have no reservations cutting down Snoke, who has shown no signs of being redeemable. There is no evidence that Luke is a hesitant fighter outside of a very iconic and special circumstance that doesn't apply here.
Please don't ever use that argument again.
2. Snoke wouldn't kill her himself. By your refusal to assess story, context, emotional state or basic circumstances this means Snoke can't kill anyone without Kylo.
You're applying context here at your own convenience, not by any internally consistent rationale.
3. You're desperately trying to nullify the smoking gun by throwing out red herrings about Snoke not knowing Luke's plan in Ach To which have nothing to do with Luke's power. Hint: he would know much better than you, given he has his own senses, the observations of Kylo, knowledge of any of Luke's feats, etc.
Snoke thinks Luke is too powerful to kill alone. Luke has a more impressive display of the Force, better accolades, and already bested Vader back in RotJ. How are you not accepting this?
4. You're so impressed by Snoke moving Rey around a bit and tossing around her lightsaber in some loops while laughing. Like seriously?
But if I ask you why Snoke didn't defend himself against Kylo, you'll have an excuse ready that you then conveniently don't afford Luke vs. Rey, even though Luke had a far more legitimate circumstance.
I could be snide and say that Luke's performance against Rey is better than Snoke's against Kylo because Snoke died, lmao.
Originally posted by The Merchant
Also Luke blasting that stone hut casually is a better feat than what Snoke has done in the movie
Not to mention this is straight after reconnecting with the force after several years being shut off from it.
Quanchi, Snoke never implies that he was wrong about Luke in the context that Snoke was actually capable of defeating Luke. I think what he found out was that Luke had shut himself off from the force to prevent himself from being detected by Snoke. He says himself that he didn't expect Luke to be so wise [implying that he was smart enough to disconnect from the force and "hide", rather than risk making the problem worse].
Anyway, I don't think it's entirely out of the realm of possibility that Snoke is more powerful than Luke. Now don't get me wrong, Quanchi is Snoke wanking very hard over some very stupid accolades that any Council-Tier Jedi plus could do [maybe not spanking Kylo feat, but moving around the lightsaber].
Why? Luke tells Rey that he knew that he was no match for the growing darkness. Presumably this is Snoke. Whether or not Luke was incorrect about this assumption or not, it's worth considering his words. This growing darkness was strong enough to make his Skywalker rage come out briefly.
Anyway, it's too unsure to definitively say either way, but I'd just ask people to consider what Luke says, that he saw himself as no match for the growing darkness.
Originally posted by samappoHe never states he can't defeat Luke in battle. He wanted him dead by any means necessary. He wants all the Jedi killed so their hope and inspiration doesn't spread.
Not to mention this is straight after reconnecting with the force after several years being shut off from it.Quanchi, Snoke never implies that he was wrong about Luke in the context that Snoke was actually capable of defeating Luke. I think what he found out was that Luke had shut himself off from the force to prevent himself from being detected by Snoke. He says himself that he didn't expect Luke to be so wise [implying that he was smart enough to disconnect from the force and "hide", rather than risk making the problem worse].
Luke himself said its silly for him to make a huge difference with his laser sword alone. He's one powerful Jedi but he'd be annihilated by the first order. That's false since Rey is actively using the force and he even created a bridge between her and Kylo but he didn't trace a bead on her either. Snoke needed her in front of him to break her will with his force power to figure out Luke's location.
Sidious used the force during the same time frame the Jedi were trying to find him as well but they were unable to do so. He was right in front of the dopes and they couldn't even figure it out. They were failure personified. My every instinct now made canon so you fanboys can no longer deny Yoda is the epitome of failure
Originally posted by quanchi112
He never states he can't defeat Luke in battle.
He believes that only a Skywalker read: not Snoke can kill Luke. That makes it pretty obvious.
We all know that if the Visual Dictionary had said "Luke knows no living Jedi can kill Snoke" or something you'd be gloating and throwing it in our faces every chance you got, just own up to it. If Snoke were so obviously stronger than Luke in the film you might have grounds to keep disputing, but your incredibly unconvincing attempt to scale them off of an emotionally conflicted Luke with a stick isn't enough.