Luke Skywalker vs. Snoke (obvious spoilers)

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He believes that only a Skywalker [b]read: not Snoke can kill Luke. That makes it pretty obvious.

We all know that if the Visual Dictionary had said "Luke knows no living Jedi can kill Snoke" or something you'd be gloating and throwing it in our faces every chance you got, just own up to it. If Snoke were so obviously stronger than Luke in the film you might have grounds to keep disputing, but your incredibly unconvincing attempt to scale them off of an emotionally conflicted Luke with a stick isn't enough. [/B]

That would only be Luke's opinion. Feelings are not facts. None of these characters are all knowing. Kenobi believed in Anakin and never believed he'd turn to the dark side but that doesn't mean his opinion didn't change when he saw Anakin's actions.

Based off the facts Snoke wins. It isn't close. Luke is powerful but he just doesn't stack up to Snoke.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Plus, Snoke tells Rey he's going to kill Luke by bombing the island from orbit. Snoke doesn't want to go down and face Luke himself.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Luke wasn't even hurt and passed on. Despite a nexus amp using his forces powers caused him to pass on. Maul survived being cut in half so based off your logic Maul is greater than Luke. D. Thor logic.

That’s.... not even close to my logic.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
That’s.... not even close to my logic.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That is destiny talk not like he's unkillable.

Lol, that's a new one. Evidence?

He also states in the film they are going to obliterate the island. He never says he's not powerful enough to defeat Luke. That's the problem here you'll sidestep the film and misinterpret one quote to reach your biased conclusions.

The most objective, reasonable interpretation of "only a Skywalker can kill Luke" is "Luke is really powerful so you need the potential of an heir of the Chosen One to beat him". Instead you invent a fictitious prophecy to support your position, lmao.

That would only be Luke's opinion. Feelings are not facts. None of these characters are all knowing. Kenobi believed in Anakin and never believed he'd turn to the dark side but that doesn't mean his opinion didn't change when he saw Anakin's actions.

But your most frequent argument is Luke's opinion on Kylo and Rey's power.

Why do you take Luke's opinion on raw power and extrapolate to guess current power, but not Snoke's direct assessment of Luke's abilities?

You make more double standards than almost anyone, lol.

Based off the facts Snoke wins. It isn't close. Luke is powerful but he just doesn't stack up to Snoke.

Based off the facts Snoke, who is hardly one to underestimate himself (quite the opposite), doesn't think he can kill Luke. If you were interested in being objective you'd just acknowledge Luke's superiority based on the available data.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, it is. Anything killing someone less than being cut in half is less than Maul's feat and somehow matters to you in a versus fight. You ignore his biology, his age, and his later death to reach your conclusions.

First of Maul’s survival is specifically a dark side thing, powered by rage. A Jedi wouldn’t survive that.

Second Snoke and Maul’s bisecting was similar (at the mid section), and both done by a Lightsaber.

Sure Snoke is old and weak ( which would benefit Maul in combat against him), But he didn’t even survive seconds. It’s a great feat by Maul which Snoke most likely can’t replicate at all. Too physically weak.

Your comparisons are lame and reek of butthurt.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lol, that's a new one. Evidence?

The most objective, reasonable interpretation of "only a Skywalker can kill Luke" is "Luke is really powerful so you need the potential of an heir of the Chosen One to beat him". Instead you invent a fictitious prophecy to support your position, lmao.
[/B]

Luke himself says it's silly to think Luke himself can take on the First Order. Your interpration makes no sense on any level.

But your most frequent argument is Luke's opinion on Kylo and Rey's power.

Why do you take Luke's opinion on raw power and extrapolate to guess current power, but not Snoke's direct assessment of Luke's abilities?

You make more double standards than almost anyone, lol.

Based off the facts Snoke, who is hardly one to underestimate himself (quite the opposite), doesn't think he can kill Luke. If you were interested in being objective you'd just acknowledge Luke's superiority based on the available data. [/B]

I do not see Luke dramatically overpower Rey or Kylo. I see Snoke do so.

Snoke wants his location to have him killed. He isn't sending Kylo to kill him via duel as that makes no sense. He does send Kylo out to carry his objectives but that'd be a foolish risk to take as well when they can safely obliterate him from space.

Snoke was unaware he cut himself off from the force so he wasn't aware of Luke's mindset and his recent experiences either. He admits he was wrong about Luke when he acknowledged Rey's rise in power.

🙂

Originally posted by Darth Thor
First of Maul’s survival is specifically a dark side thing, powered by rage. A Jedi wouldn’t survive that.

Second Snoke and Maul’s bisecting was similar (at the mid section), and both done by a Lightsaber.

Sure Snoke is old and weak ( which would benefit Maul in combat against him), But he didn’t even survive seconds. It’s a great feat by Maul which Snoke most likely can’t replicate at all. Too physically weak.

Your comparisons are lame and reek of butthurt.

Their age and biology isn't similar. Do you think any qualified scientist wouldn't see the differences in age and biology and just reach the same conclusion.

Snoke's body is older and physically weaker. When Maul was older he was killed by less than being cut in half. Snoke's force powers are vastly superior so he ragdolls Maul at will.

@quanchi

*facepalm* The fact that he said he was going to obliterate the island proves that he's not aware of your fan prophecy but was just talking about combat. He thought: "Kylo could become powerful enough to kill Luke, but he isn't, so I'll just use turbolasers".

Originally posted by quanchi112
Not by rage but by passion to protect someone else perhaps a possibility.

Nope. It was specifically confirmed a Jedi wouldn’t cling to life so abnormally. It’s a dark side thing only.

Originally posted by quanchi112

Their age and biology isn't similar. Do you think any qualified scientist wouldn't see the differences in age and biology and just reach the same conclusion.

What’s the difference in their biology that would make a huge difference in being bisected? Do you know something we don’t or are you just speculating?

In any case it was Maul’s dark side rage that was the main source of his survival, not his biology.

Originally posted by quanchi112

Snoke's body is older and physically weaker. When Maul was older he was killed by less than being cut in half. Snoke's force powers are vastly superior so he ragdolls Maul at will.

Yes Snoke is very physically weak. So much so he needs to rely on his guards for protection against Lightsaber combatants. Not a good case for him defeating Maul.

Maul has already been cut in 2, so obviously can’t survive a serious injury to his upper body that’s left. Yet still he lives long enough to dialogue with Obi-Wan. And that was Old Maul.

Just face it, Snoke’s physicality is too big a weakness for him. Given that, without his guards I don’t see him taking a physical beast, skilled Saber wielder and force user of Maul’s caliber. Not in 1 v 1 combat anyway. He’d probably take Maul from a good amount of distance though, like over a hologram screen or view screen.

Just because he has guards and weak physicality doesn't necessarily mean that Snoke *relies* on his guards. There's only one person who could actually stand up to Snoke in the galaxy, and that's Luke. It's probably more of an attempt to replicate the old empire, which is what Snoke is obviously trying to do if you read the Visual Dictionary.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
@quanchi

*facepalm* The fact that he said he was going to obliterate the island proves that he's not aware of your fan prophecy but was just talking about combat. He thought: "Kylo could become powerful enough to kill Luke, but he isn't, so I'll just use turbolasers".

🙂

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Nope. It was specifically confirmed a Jedi wouldn’t cling to life so abnormally. It’s a dark side thing only.

What’s the difference in their biology that would make a huge difference in being bisected? Do you know something we don’t or are you just speculating?

In any case it was Maul’s dark side rage that was the main source of his survival, not his biology.

Yes Snoke is very physically weak. So much so he needs to rely on his guards for protection against Lightsaber combatants. Not a good case for him defeating Maul.

Maul has already been cut in 2, so obviously can’t survive a serious injury to his upper body that’s left. Yet still he lives long enough to dialogue with Obi-Wan. And that was Old Maul.

Just face it, Snoke’s physicality is too big a weakness for him. Given that, without his guards I don’t see him taking a physical beast, skilled Saber wielder and force user of Maul’s caliber. Not in 1 v 1 combat anyway. He’d probably take Maul from a good amount of distance though, like over a hologram screen or view screen.

We don't know but we don't ignore the fact they don't have the same biologies nor were they the same age. If you weight train at age 25 and 70 will your body have the same results ?

Watch the film. We see him wave off his personal guard and easily disarm a lightsaber combatant Luke was unable to disarm. You're ignoring the film and what we see like a typical Star Wars nerd from this forum. The showings matter not a small piece of text from a guide that can be interpreted a variety of ways.

We also see him use his powers to quickly punk Kylo ****ing Ren. His guards don't need to save him. He waves the ****ers off.

So old Maul dies to less since he's old. Look at what Kylo has survived in a Force Awakens. That doesn't mean he beats Snoke. I don't know if you're trolling or genuinely unable to see the sheer irrelevance of your point.

Snoke would fl him or remove his light saber and force rape him. Maul wouldn't ever touch him. Snoke's body is old and weak but he has the force the same as Yoda whose body was old and needed a cane for walking.

Originally posted by quanchi112
In the film he admits he was wrong about Luke and is just going to have him killed. No powerful leader outside of pricing himself would take the risk. We see Kylo have Luke blasted but when that doesn't work he goes down there himself to kill him. Snoke wanted him killed but never says he isn't powerful enough to do so. Just stop ignoring the film and common sense.

🙂

He was wrong about Luke's decisions, not his power, for pete's sake.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He was wrong about Luke's [b]decisions, not his power, for pete's sake. [/B]

Lol I said that myself - before we go on, do you concede every rebuttal to the quote aside from that one?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lol I said that myself - before we go on, do you concede every rebuttal to the quote aside from that one?

Originally posted by quanchi112
To protect others I can see a Jedi doing so out of duty. Either way it doesn't prove anything combat wise. So you think Dooku could survive being cut in half ? Or Palpatine ?

It's a dark side thing so no point in speculating.

It's a show of power. Like Luke's astro projection feat, which wasn't a combat feat either. But you know he's ridiculously powerful to do that.

But I'll grant you it's a combination of dark side power and physical durability.

Not sure if Dooku would survive that, but Palpatine definitely would.

Originally posted by quanchi112
We don't know but we don't ignore the fact they don't have the same biologies nor were they the same age. If you weight train at age 25 and 70 will your body have the same results ?

The biology part is Speculation. We can only go by the showings we have, and will take other factors into account if they're specifically stated somewhere.

Again, the feat was mainly fueled by dark side. Snoke being a physical weakling who needs guards to protect him doesn't help his case.

Originally posted by quanchi112
We also see him use his powers to quickly punk Kylo ****ing Ren. His guards don't need to save him. He waves the ****ers off.

Yeah from an advantaged position where he had more time to react. And his guards intimidate Ren right after.

Sure he's more powerful than Ren. But there's nothing to suggest he would ragdoll Ren the way he does Rey.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So old Maul dies to less since he's old. Look at what Kylo has survived in a Force Awakens. That doesn't mean he beats Snoke. I don't know if you're trolling or genuinely unable to see the sheer irrelevance of your point.

Maul's can take more than both Snoke and Kylo. He's also a far more skilled combatant going by feats. The only advantage Snoke has his TK, which up until TLJ you were arguing your ass off every week that TK only works when an opponent is caught off guard.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Snoke would fl him or remove his light saber and force rape him. Maul wouldn't ever touch him. Snoke's body is old and weak but he has the force the same as Yoda whose body was old and needed a cane for walking.

Yeah in your fantasies lol

He's done nothing to show he'd force rape Maul.

Yoda can use the force and be more physically able than Maul. Force powers enhance physicality like that.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I do not concede a single point.

Then show me where Snoke admits he was wrong about Luke's power, please.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
It's a dark side thing so no point in speculating.

It's a show of power. Like Luke's astro projection feat, which wasn't a combat feat either. But you know he's ridiculously powerful to do that.

I also said surviving being killed isn't a dark side thing. Padme just lost the will to live and she isn't a dark sider.

Ok so it doesn't really matter in combat. Cool.

But I'll grant you it's a combination of dark side power and physical durability.

Not sure if Dooku would survive that, but Palpatine definitely would.

[/B]

The biology part is Speculation. We can only go by the showings we have, and will take other factors into account if they're specifically stated somewhere.

Again, the feat was mainly fueled by dark side. Snoke being a physical weakling who needs guards to protect him doesn't help his case.

[/B]

Yeah from an advantaged position where he had more time to react. And his guards intimidate Ren right after.

Sure he's more powerful than Ren. But there's nothing to suggest he would ragdoll Ren the way he does Rey.[/B]

Yes, there is since Rey and Ren are equals. They stalemate for the lightsaber. Snoke destroys her. Rey resists Ren's attempts to extract the information. Snoke just rips it out of her.

Maul's can take more than both Snoke and Kylo. He's also a far more skilled combatant going by feats. The only advantage Snoke has his TK, which up until TLJ you were arguing your ass off every week that TK only works when an opponent is caught off guard.
[/B]

Yeah in your fantasies lol

He's done nothing to show he'd force rape Maul.

Yoda can use the force and be more physically able than Maul. Force powers enhance physicality like that. [/B]