Originally posted by relentless1He established the bridge. He says it. You are just proving you're biased and can't have a reasonable discussion. It's pitiful. Snoke is the most powerful we have ever seen.
facts are facts; Ren and Rey established that same connection after Snoke was long gone, they did it not him
Re: So - How powerful is Snoke, exactly?
The way I see it, Snoke's strength is contingent on the strength of Kylo and Rey. and oh boy, Kylo and Rey are strong as hell.
As Ellimist has said, Ren has sheer power/potential that Luke has only otherwise seen in Rey (who is Ren's equal in the light). Furthermore, Ren has a lifetime of training and practice, hence why he's one of the most powerful characters in galactic history:
Kylo Ren has a lifetime of training and practice, is one of the most powerful combatants in the history of Star Wars, and is the leader of the Knights of Ren.- StarWars.com
Snoke says at the end of TFA that he's going to "complete Kylo's training." What did this training entail, though? As we see in TLJ: resolve. Snoke knew that Ren hadn't fully committed himself to the dark side, and that the deed of killing Han Solo essentially split his spirit in half. Snoke felt that Kylo would become the next Vader once he'd fully given himself to the dark side.
That's it.
Kylo has all the skills, he's a Skywalker who's been training all his life. He has the raw power. He only lacks resolve. This is why Snoke essentially starts wanking the shit out of Kylo before he dies: he sensed that Kylo was becoming the true heir apparent to Lord Vader by no longer being conflicted and being, like Anakin against Dooku, as clear as a crystal bell mentally.
Heck, one could liken Kylo to Mustafar Vader in that sense. Anakin was overwhelmed by fear, and as Rey notes in TFA, Kylo had a crippling fear that he'd never be as strong as Darth Vader.
Aside from injury, that's also why I think Rey was able to defeat Kylo in TFA. Not only is Rey Kylo's equivalent on the light side (meaning that as Kylo grows stronger, as does Rey, at least according to Snoke,) but she has a degree of resolve that Ren certainly didn't possess. Snoke notes this multiple times, (still that fiery spit of hope! You have the spirit of a true Jedi!).
And yet, despite all of this, Kylo and Rey's current power levels, as Ellimist noted in the OP, aren't exactly close to that of Snoke.
Of course we see Snoke casually meld Kylo and Rey's minds from across the galaxy, to the point where they are connecting physically, (Ren notes that such an exertion of power would kill Rey, who is his own equal). We have Snoke overpowering Rey's grip on the lightsaber with the utmost ease, ragdolling Rey essentially without moving, and easily ripping all the knowledge he wanted from Rey's mind, (remember when Kylo was overpowered in a TP bout with Rey when she didn't even know she could use the force?). Keeping in mind that even after Kylo found his resolve, his applicable strength in the force was still on par with Rey's given their struggle to gain the lightsaber.
Ultimately, a lot of this is subjective, but the way I see it, Ren is extremely powerful and skilled, Rey equally so, and Snoke's power visibly dwarfed both of theirs.
Yeah but Rey's power is really inconsistently expressed. Ex: she sees those rocks covering the escape and does lift them but seems surprised she can. Why should we think she was putting up a competent defense against Snoke?
Also the Visual Dictionary basically says Luke > Snoke and I don't see strong enough contrary evidence to override it.
As Ant has said, I think the intent of the scene is pretty clear.
And regardless, I don't think you can really get around Snoke casually overpowering Rey's grip on the lightsaber, ripping knowledge from Rey's mind at will (remember when Kylo tried the same thing on a much less experienced Rey?), and casually performing a feat that Kylo stated would kill Rey.
And I don't think I mentioned Luke once.
Originally posted by relentless1
facts are facts; Ren and Rey established that same connection after Snoke was long gone, they did it not him
Snoke Just bridged then initially. And put 1 fake vision around Kylo For Rey to see. He likely didn’t get them to touch each other. And likely didn’t keep the connection going.
Rebels Maul put strong and disturbing visions into Ezra’s mind, drawing him out to Tatooine to find Kenobi.
Re: Re: So - How powerful is Snoke, exactly?
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZAnd yet, despite all of this, Kylo and Rey's current power levels, as Ellimist noted in the OP, aren't exactly close to that of Snoke.
If Kylo wasn’t even close to Snoke, then he wouldn’t have been able to hide his betrayal from Snoke whole Snoke was actively reading his mind.
Rey wouldn’t have been able to do that, because For all the talk of “Rey is Kylo’s equal counterpart”, Kylo has skill and mastery beyond Rey’s. She has equal potential and raw power to him, but she still lacks training.
The whole lack of training with Rey is what really, really bothers me. I get TFA to an extent(even though this was also a little face scrunching), but I mean TLJ wasted the opportunity to train Rey properly....and then I'm suppose to believe she can fight well trained guards tasked with protecting Snoke after what...a day or a day and a half, self training with a lightsaber?
So the Praetorian guards can have a somewhat decent fight with Kylo yet also at the same time, lose to Rey who shouldn't have anywhere near the capacity as of yet to fight trained guards within the confines of melee? Much less with the guards utilizing different weaponry.
The lack of training is what mostly bothers me, moreso than the characters involved.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZHe is obviously much more powerful than Dooku but you're fighting up against the inherent bias of fanboyism so despite the obvious power of those scenes with Snoke interacting with Rey and Kylo you'll see their entire case based off a visual dictionary quote and how they interpet it. A truly laughable defense.
He's clearly not just a Dooku-level force user, though, imho.
Originally posted by TrocityIt isn't accurate so who cares what you think. Like Disney was sitting around saying the big bad boss of Kylo is Dooku level. **** no they went bigger and badder in every regard. The ships, tech, power, abilities, and feats in this trilogy are beyond the film showings of the Ot and Pt.
It's really not a bad thing for Snoke to be a Dooku level Force user, guys.
Originally posted by quanchi112
It isn't accurate so who cares what you think. Like Disney was sitting around saying the big bad boss of Kylo is Dooku level. **** no they went bigger and badder in every regard. The ships, tech, power, abilities, and feats in this trilogy are beyond the film showings of the Ot and Pt.
Obviously technology tends to improve over time Dummy!
But fact is Starkiller Base being more powerful than the Death Star was just a plot device to get rid of the new Republic. Likewise Snoke was simply a plot device for Kylo to ascend.
Snoke was never meant to be the “new and improved” Palpatine.
Originally posted by Darth ThorSo you want to take one aspect of reality while ignoring the rest in discussing a fantasy film. You are cluelessly biased.
Obviously technology tends to improve over time Dummy!But fact is Starkiller Base being more powerful than the Death Star was just a plot device to get rid of the new Republic. Likewise Snoke was simply a plot device for Kylo to ascend.
Snoke was never meant to be the “new and improved” Palpatine.
Your opinion doesn't override the power. The Death Star was a plot device you incompetent twit that doesn't mean it's more powerful than Starkiller. It isn't just as Snoke is more powerful than Sidious. Your opinion doesn't override the obvious power superiority of Snoke. How they blew up Starkiller or how a character dies doesn't take away from the power of said character.
Windu also defeated Sidious in fair combat despite his obvious power inferiority.
🙂
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Obviously technology tends to improve over time Dummy!But fact is Starkiller Base being more powerful than the Death Star was just a plot device to get rid of the new Republic. Likewise Snoke was simply a plot device for Kylo to ascend.
Snoke was never meant to be the “new and improved” Palpatine.
The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary flat out says that, though the First Order fleet is an impressive assemblage of firepower, it is too small to rival the Empire's at its height.
It isn't as widespread but it's definitely more impressive in an all out war. Their tech is far superior so who cares how many more ships and fleets they have when they are vastly inferior to the First Order. Starkiller base, Death Star tech, light speed tracking, Supremacy, etc.
First Order would decimate the empire. They intimidate while Sidious does his feminine duplicitous thing in the shadows like a true shady galactic politician. Snoke would bring his empire to its knees with what we see from the First Order.
What kind of an impact did the atomic bomb have ? Weapons of mass destruction and superior tech matters significantly.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The way I see it, Snoke's strength is contingent on the strength of Kylo and Rey. and oh boy, Kylo and Rey are strong as hell.As Ellimist has said, Ren has sheer power/potential that Luke has only otherwise seen in Rey (who is Ren's equal in the light). Furthermore, Ren has a lifetime of training and practice, hence why he's one of the most powerful characters in galactic history:
Snoke says at the end of TFA that he's going to "complete Kylo's training." What did this training entail, though? As we see in TLJ: resolve. Snoke knew that Ren hadn't fully committed himself to the dark side, and that the deed of killing Han Solo essentially split his spirit in half. Snoke felt that Kylo would become the next Vader once he'd fully given himself to the dark side.
That's it.
Kylo has all the skills, he's a Skywalker who's been training all his life. He has the raw power. He only lacks resolve. This is why Snoke essentially starts wanking the shit out of Kylo before he dies: he sensed that Kylo was becoming the true heir apparent to Lord Vader by no longer being conflicted and being, like Anakin against Dooku, as clear as a crystal bell mentally.
Heck, one could liken Kylo to Mustafar Vader in that sense. Anakin was overwhelmed by fear, and as Rey notes in TFA, Kylo had a crippling fear that he'd never be as strong as Darth Vader.
Aside from injury, that's also why I think Rey was able to defeat Kylo in TFA. Not only is Rey Kylo's equivalent on the light side (meaning that as Kylo grows stronger, as does Rey, at least according to Snoke,) but she has a degree of resolve that Ren certainly didn't possess. Snoke notes this multiple times, (still that fiery spit of hope! You have the spirit of a true Jedi!).
And yet, despite all of this, Kylo and Rey's current power levels, as Ellimist noted in the OP, aren't exactly close to that of Snoke.
Of course we see Snoke casually meld Kylo and Rey's minds from across the galaxy, to the point where they are connecting physically, (Ren notes that such an exertion of power would kill Rey, who is his own equal). We have Snoke overpowering Rey's grip on the lightsaber with the utmost ease, ragdolling Rey essentially without moving, and easily ripping all the knowledge he wanted from Rey's mind, (remember when Kylo was overpowered in a TP bout with Rey when she didn't even know she could use the force?). Keeping in mind that even after Kylo found his resolve, his applicable strength in the force was still on par with Rey's given their struggle to gain the lightsaber.
Ultimately, a lot of this is subjective, but the way I see it, Ren is extremely powerful and skilled, Rey equally so, and Snoke's power visibly dwarfed both of theirs.