1/2/2018 - #1A (Ranking ONE, Round ONE) - Most Powerful Character Tournament - VOTE!

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
As of Operation: Knightfall, Anakin's powers are boundless without any mental handicap to restrict his potential. He's already beginning to exhibit Chosen One-esque heights when he decides Dooku will lose. You argue that may be hyperbole, in which I would agree if the text doesn't again feature Anakin willing an event into occurrence by landing the Invisible Hand - a feat deemed impossible by both Mace Windu and the narrator. The text even states how Anakin landed it only because his resolve to save his friends was greater than the Force's will, which I think frankly parallels with the Mortis arc and Anakin's overpowering of the Ones there. My perception of Anakin during this time is someone who's just rapidly expanding unlike anything we've ever seen. While he has ways to go before reaching his full potential, I see him as driving 80 MPH to the finish line during the later events of Revenge of the Sith.

For the record, I think many more sources support the idea Anakin > RotS Sidious than otherwise.

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Join us Samappo.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
As of Operation: Knightfall, Anakin's powers are boundless without any mental handicap to restrict his potential. He's already beginning to exhibit Chosen One-esque heights when he decides Dooku will lose. You argue that may be hyperbole, in which I would agree if the text doesn't again feature Anakin willing an event into occurrence by landing the Invisible Hand - a feat deemed impossible by both Mace Windu and the narrator. The text even states how Anakin landed it only because his resolve to save his friends was greater than the Force's will, which I think frankly parallels with the Mortis arc and Anakin's overpowering of the Ones there. My perception of Anakin during this time is someone who's just rapidly expanding unlike anything we've ever seen. While he has ways to go before reaching his full potential, I see him as driving 80 MPH to the finish line during the later events of Revenge of the Sith.

For the record, I think many more sources support the idea Anakin > RotS Sidious than otherwise.

"He's growing powerful at an unprecedented rate" and "he's weaker than Luke or Wankatine" aren't mutually exclusive. BTW didn't Luke perform a similar ship-landing feat in DE? Doesn't Palpatine guide the Lusankya down? If he really were approaching Mortis Anakin, Palpatine would not have merely told Yoda that Vader WILL become more powerful than him, and various sourcebooks on Sidious being the most powerful Sith would just have to be tossed aside rather than reconciled under my system.

The only case you seem to have is if we take him "willing" his victory literally, by which case we might as well open the floodgates and start taking literally a lot of passages I know you don't want to.

Except the very nature of Anakin's potential blurs the lines between what is hyperbole and what is literal. The case is there to be made and it's not dependant on Anakin's subverting the will of the Force. I've already stated two established facts:

1.Knightfall Vader >> Anakin 2. Anakin >/~ ROTS Yoda ~ Sidious.

The actual scaling here is all that's up for contention.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
"He's growing powerful at an unprecedented rate" and "he's weaker than Luke or Wankatine" aren't mutually exclusive.

Under normal terms, sure, but when his baseline is already above Yoda, it is.

BTW didn't Luke perform a similar ship-landing feat in DE?

You tell me.

Doesn't Palpatine guide the Lusankya down?

That feat and the Invisible Hand landing are not remotely comparable as you should know.

And that's not even saying one is better than the other (although one is) - they're just totally different.

If he really were approaching Mortis Anakin, Palpatine would not have merely told Yoda that Vader WILL become more powerful than him

I don't think it's reaching - especially after TFA and TLJ - that Palpatine might be suggesting Vader has to first prove himself by slaying Obi-Wan, hence why he says "soon" and the fight is going on as he says it.

"You will not stop me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us. "

You can take it as: you will fail - and so will Obi-Wan.

and various sourcebooks on Sidious being the most powerful Sith would just have to be tossed aside rather than reconciled under my system.

I have no issue with tossing them when almost all of them have something off about them - which I think even Azronger has admitted.

The only case you seem to have is if we take him "willing" his victory literally, by which case we might as well open the floodgates and start taking literally a lot of passages I know you don't want to.

Except, unlike everyone else, Anakin can stand with the Ones of Mortis. It's not a stretch for the Forcechild to, you know, do something like that with the Force.

BTW, make responses small.

I'm not interested in debate, just discussion.

If you get too long or too deep, I'll stop responding, lol.

1. Base Anakin is not above Yoda combatively. The most that we can say is he has more raw power and might win in a pure duel. Yoda has the clear edge in mastered Force power. Ergo, it's not clear to me that Base Anakin + Knightfall amp > RotS Sidious -> RotJ -> DE.

2. I doubt that the like dozen quotes can all be tossed, and you're really reaching with the "will become more powerful interpretation which you know wasn't the intent.

3. Anakin was explicitly using the special properties of Mortis.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Except the very nature of Anakin's potential blurs the lines between what is hyperbole and what is literal.

And why doesn't this apply to Luke or Palpatine's passages? Anakin has more potential but far less experience, so I don't know how you're determining whether we can take things literally or not.

The case is there to be made and it's not dependant on Anakin's subverting the will of the Force. I've already stated two established facts:

1.Knightfall Vader >> Anakin 2. Anakin >/~ ROTS Yoda ~ Sidious.

The actual scaling here is all that's up for contention.

No, Yoda/RotS Sidious >\= Anakin. Anakin's only edge is as a pure duelist.

Just how close do we have RotS and DE Sidious, lol? While it's fair to put Anakin on the same level as RotS Palpatine, the Reborn Emperor is in an entirely different order of magnitude.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
1. Base Anakin is not above Yoda combatively. The most that we can say is he has more raw power and might win in a pure duel. Yoda has the clear edge in mastered Force power. Ergo, it's not clear to me that Base Anakin + Knightfall amp > RotS Sidious -> RotJ -> DE.

Base Anakin as in what?

While I agree Yoda has an edge in Force mastery, Obi-Wan does state in LoE that Anakin's mastery is just as good as Yoda's.

2. I doubt that the like dozen quotes can all be tossed, and you're really reaching with the "will become more powerful interpretation which you know wasn't the intent.

Enough of them can so that Anakin's dwarf them completely and utterly, thus destroying the idea Skillz and you are making that they're close enough that "we can't really tell."

Also, I'm honestly not sure. In this discussion setting, I would admit if I didn't have a response to that, but I think my proposal makes sense.

What doesn't make sense to me would be such blatant inconsistency, which is the case with your proposed version.

It doesn't really make sense why Palpatine would tell Yoda that unless it's linking back to Obi-Wan / is of immediate concern to Yoda (because, again, Palpatine thinks he's also going to kill Yoda).

3. Anakin was explicitly using the special properties of Mortis.

Huh? The point of the sequence was to show what Anakin is capable of in his full potential. It follows that, as Anakin approaches such, we'll see hints of crazy Force-overpowering feats along the way.

Uh the fate of Vader is important to Yoda whether Yoda lives or dies.

I think when we're confronted with apparently contradictory quotes we should try to reconcile them, especially when both sides are very strong (e.g. Lucas's intent on dueling prowess vs. like a dozen on Sidious's power), not just throw out the ones you don't like.

What "fate?" All he said is that he will grow stronger. That's not important to Yoda as it stands.

Except my point is that I think you might have, like, 2 legit quotes, where I have over half-a-dozen.

Sidious says Yoda won't defeat him because Vader will surpass them both. Clearly this means that "even if you defeat me Vader's gonna be more powerful than either of us". He said "will become", BTW.

Uh Sidious has way more than two quotes, lol, unless if you took to the Nai school of trying to nitpick away the dozen independent sources that all label Palpatine the most powerful Sith.

"You will not stop me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us."

You can take it two ways. There's not a comma, so it's not demanding that it's a singular thought.

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Well, yeah, that's what I said. Most can be thrown away. We'll be down with two.

In the absence of a clear accolade hierarchy establishing who is superior, Palpatine or Vader, we must turn to feats. And there, as easily gleaned from the text, Anakin performs better against Dooku than Yoda did, even in his weakest, restrained base form.

Then Anakin gets permission to let loose, and he gains access to zone form, and destroys Dooku. Later on in the novel, it is described how Anakin feels more powerful than he ever has, meaning that after unlocking his furnace heart, his base form has surpassed his zone form, or more appropriately, he has made the zone his new base.

After his fall to the dark side, Anakin starts to rapidly amass more and more power in the Force. Although the extent of this amplification isn't clear, I don't think it's a stretch to say he'd speedblitz, or two/three-shot someone like Dooku at this point. He has gained so many power-ups since his restrained base form, which was already outperforming Yoda for Sheev's sake. This is Knightfall Vader at his most powerful in my opinion.

However, I don't think that's enough to beat the likes of peak Palpatine or Luke.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"You will not stop me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us."

You can take it two ways. There's not a comma, so it's not demanding that it's a singular thought.

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Yeah but it'd be awkward to just have two random thoughts joined together like that. The fact of the matter is that your interpretation of the quote is convoluted and kind of made to fit with what you want it to be, tbh.

Well, yeah, that's what I said. Most can be thrown away. We'll be down with two.

Yeah...no. But you're welcome to go over them once you finish your powerpoint.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah but it'd be awkward to just have two random thoughts joined together like that. The fact of the matter is that your interpretation of the quote is convoluted and kind of made to fit with what you want it to be, tbh.

As you think of it, Palpatine is saying even if Yoda defeats him, Vader remains and is supreme.

However, why would he specifically say, "can't stop me." You'd think he'd say "us" or something different.

Either way you think of it, it's worded poorly. I don't think it's fair to say my take is more so.

Any more votes?

I'm still unsure about KF Anakin. Not sure if his ability to go against the will of the force and deciding to win [aka unlocking his potential] is enough to overpower the likes of DE Sidious.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

However, why would he specifically say, "can't stop me." You'd think he'd say "us" or something different.

🙄 Seriously?

He said "me" because Yoda was pointing a lightsaber at him, essentially he was saying "even if you kill me my apprentice, who I turned and am responsible for, will become more powerful than either of us anyway and thus fulfill my plan". And yes, he says will become.

It's pretty obvious to me.